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Discussion Starter #1
I'd like to think so and because of that, I am a Christian but I havent been able to get an answer for one question that ive been wondering a long time.
Assuming God does exist, how did "he" come to exist? Does "God", whomever you may want him to be have a creator? If everything has a beginning then it would only make sense that "God" would too right?

I find it strange to think that a being could just "create" itself. I also find it hard to accept that there is only one singular supreme being (in the sense of the Christian religion) that holds sway over the entire universe. I mean we already know the universe is HUGE; some people think it's limitless, some people think it's defined with boundaries, but considering the scope and magnitude of the universe, it's hard to accept the fact that our "God" is indeed "the" supreme being when it would appear that "he" apparantly only holds dominion over humans on earth (as far as we know). I mean, if there are sentient life forms 3 trillion light years away that are advanced as we are and they also worship a "God", do you think theirs is different or they worshipping the same "God(s)" that we are?

Also, the planet has pretty much been proven to be billions of years old and humans didnt exist until roughly about 2-4 million years ago. What was "God" doing for the roughly 14-16 billion years before human existance? It makes me wonder if the "God(s)" that we worship are exactly as the scriptures (to whatever religion) says so. Could our "Gods" be a little more complicated than the scriptures say? Keep in mind that the people who wrote the scriptures were limited in their thought capacity and knowledge compared to modern day people so it makes me wonder if our "Gods" are exactly the way as we have been brought up to believe.

Dont get me wrong, I am a Christian, and I DO believe in a creator but I wonder if things are totally different than how we've been brought up to believe. I reject the idea that there is no "creator" at the least. The universe is all too complex to be some random occurance and the simple fact that life came to exist on this planet under the most "perfect" of cicumstances leads me to believe that somehow, someway, "somebody" created us. All that exists came to be by some cause and I feel that whatever is the "cause" is the path to discovering "God".



Without me exposing my mind any furthur,( cause I could go on for hours :readclose ) what do the rest of you think? Does anyone else feel this way?
 

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When you say that the earth has been proven to be billions of years old,do you say that because of carbon dating or what?
If so carbon dating has been scientifically proven to break down at most at 50,000 years.
Go to a web site www.evolution-facts.org get the book called evolution cruncher GREAT book,its only like 5.00.

To answer your first question let me ask you a question.
If GOD is the ultimate person and most powerful person,can he create a rock so big that even he cant lift it?


NO,thats like saying "god,make a square round."
God is just...thats all i can say.Hope that that helped,and really Im not trying to be a jerk in anyway so dont take offense please.Any other questions shoot me a PM. I would love to help in any way I can.

P.S. Im a christian to.
 

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dodgeboywonder said:
When you say that the earth has been proven to be billions of years old,do you say that because of carbon dating or what?
If so carbon dating has been scientifically proven to break down at most at 50,000 years.
Go to a web site www.evolution-facts.org get the book called evolution cruncher GREAT book,its only like 5.00.

To answer your first question let me ask you a question.
If GOD is the ultimate person and most powerful person,can he create a rock so big that even he cant lift it?

NO,thats like saying "god,make a square round."
God is just...thats all i can say.Hope that that helped,and really Im not trying to be a jerk in anyway so dont take offense please.Any other questions shoot me a PM. I would love to help in any way I can.

P.S. Im a christian to.

LOL, remember that simpson's quote? "Could God microwave a burrito so hot that he himself could not eat it?" :lol:

sorry, I thought it was funny. I was born and raised Catholic, I still go to mass every week, and I don't know what to believe. I have done my research and, like you hoevito, find it difficult to believe we are here by chance. Evolution does seem to be somewhat logical, but if you go all the way back to the atom, what created it? Overall, it is a very complicated subject to figure out, and it is one that will plague mankind forever. Noone knows what happens when you die, and we never will.
I do however believe strongly that if there is a higher power, it is not all good like alot of religeons teach. If he was, my best friends parents would not both have died of drug induced heart attacks before she was 14. There is alot of suffering in this world, I don't think an eternally kind "overlord" would let it get to the point it has.
Just my .02 to keep the thread interesting. :thumbsup:
 

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Discussion Starter #4
dodgeboywonder said:
When you say that the earth has been proven to be billions of years old,do you say that because of carbon dating or what?
If so carbon dating has been scientifically proven to break down at most at 50,000 years.
Go to a web site www.evolution-facts.org get the book called evolution cruncher GREAT book,its only like 5.00.
Here ya go :readclose
(taken from http://www.tim-thompson.com/radiometric.html)

Radiometric dating actually allows the measurement of absolute ages, and so it is deadly to the argument that the earth cannot be more than 10,000 years old.

Radiometric methods measure the time elapsed since the particular radiometric clock was reset. Radiocarbon dating, which is probably best known in the general public, works only on things that were once alive and are now dead. It measures the time elapsed since death, but is limited in scale to no more than about 50,000 years ago. Other methods, such as Uranium/Lead, Potassium/Argon, Argon/Argon and others, are able to measure much longer time periods, and are not restricted to things that were once alive. Generally applied to igneous rocks (those of volcanic origin), they measure the time since the molten rock solidified. If that happens to be longer than 10,000 years, then the idea of a young-Earth is called into question. If that happens to be billions of years, then the young-Earth is in big trouble.

As of January, 1999, The oldest rocks found on earth are 4.031 ± 0.003 billion years old (meaning it has been that long since the molten rocks solidified and thus reset their internal clocks). This is reported in the paper Priscoan (4.00-4.03 Ga) orthogneisses from northwestern Canada by Samuel A. Bowring & Ian S. Williams; Contributions to Mineralogy and Petrology 134(1): 3-16, January 1999. The previous record was 3.96 billion years, set in 1989.

The putative age of the Earth, about 4,500,000,000 years is based on the radiometrically measured age of meteorites, and is also about 500,000,000 years older than the oldest rocks. But regardless of the accuracy of this age for the earth, the existence of rocks circa 4,000,000,000 years old puts the squeeze on a 10,000 year old Earth.

So the natural response from a young-Earth perspective is to claim that radiometric dating is inaccurate or untrustworthy. Unfortunately, while the young-Earthers are long on criticism, they are short on support. It's easy to assert that radiometric methods don't work, but it's quite another thing to prove it. This the young-Earth creationist regularly fails to do.




dodgeboywonder said:
To answer your first question let me ask you a question.
If GOD is the ultimate person and most powerful person,can he create a rock so big that even he cant lift it?


NO,thats like saying "god,make a square round."
God is just...thats all i can say.Hope that that helped,and really Im not trying to be a jerk in anyway so dont take offense please.Any other questions shoot me a PM. I would love to help in any way I can.

P.S. Im a christian to.

Anyways, thanks for respnding but that did nothing as far as addressing my main points. Try to elaborate some more if you will.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
MSCDCarFreak said:
LOL, remember that simpson's quote? "Could God microwave a burrito so hot that he himself could not eat it?" :lol:

sorry, I thought it was funny. I was born and raised Catholic, I still go to mass every week, and I don't know what to believe. I have done my research and, like you hoevito, find it difficult to believe we are here by chance. Evolution does seem to be somewhat logical, but if you go all the way back to the atom, what created it? Overall, it is a very complicated subject to figure out, and it is one that will plague mankind forever. Noone knows what happens when you die, and we never will.
I do however believe strongly that if there is a higher power, it is not all good like alot of religeons teach. If he was, my best friends parents would not both have died of drug induced heart attacks before she was 14. There is alot of suffering in this world, I don't think an eternally kind "overlord" would let it get to the point it has.
Just my .02 to keep the thread interesting. :thumbsup:


Our views run pretty parallel Mscd. Evolution does sound pretty logical since Ive learned what ive learned but I think that our evolution was "guided" or nutured to an extent. I dont buy that crap about all life originating from a "primordial soup". How can something as complex as life itself just be some mere cosmic accident? How can the wide range of emotions, varieties of life, shapes, animals, hell, even the universe just be some random occurance? It cant because it all seems too perfect.

I actually toyed with the idea that maybe there is a "human God" or an "Earth God". Just think, if there is life in some other galaxy far away and the life forms there worship a God, would it be the Christian/Jewish/Muslim God (for example)? If so, when you go to heaven would you meet a bunch of ET's there from other planets, OR do they have their own God?

Still, I want to know how did God come to be? Has God always been a God? Who or what created God? How can we be so sure that there aren't more Gods in the universe?

Maybe Im so screwed up like this because Ive played Xenogears/Xenosaga one too many times. :stab:
 

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As far as suffering is concerned I personally subscribe to the theory that what we undergo on this plane of existance just might be in preperation for something else later on.
Either that or there is no God and every thing we do is pointless and we shouldn't be worrying about doing right because in the grand scheme of things there is no right and wrong. Just action and reaction.
 

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Your last questions are the ones I would like answered too, because that is my biggest question as well. This is why I have such a hard time with people who devote their entire lives (like my grandma) to living as The Bible says too. How can a book written by different people more that 2000 years ago hold so much water today? Before modern christianity, the general population of the world was paganistic (is that a word?). You could actually be killed if you believed any different. You raised the question earlier about what people are going to be worshipping millions of years down the road. For all we know, they could believe that LOTR actually happened, and make that hobbit kid their god, because he saved the world from destruction. It just seems ignorant to me to devote your entire life to something that may not actually exist, or may be completely different than you were taught. That would be like saving up for a Ferrari and then getting a Yugo sent to your house, but you couldn't do anything about it, because that is just how things were (horrible analogy, but hopefully the point makes sense).

To try and answer one of your questions though, I once asked my mother how she knew that her god was the right one to be worshipping, and if it indeed was, what happened to the Pagans, Muslims, etc. when they died. Her response was that she believed that a persons individual beliefs were what their heaven would be like. So this makes me think that maybe there are different areas of heaven? You may not have to mingle with all the other gods, they might have their own country, planet, whatever you want to call it. If the galaxy is indeed infinite, then this could make sense.
As to how god was created, good question, I haven't the faintest idea on that one. Hopefully someone else can provide an opinion there :thumbsup:
 

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Omegalock said:
As far as suffering is concerned I personally subscribe to the theory that what we undergo on this plane of existance just might be in preperation for something else later on.Either that or there is no God and every thing we do is pointless and we shouldn't be worrying about doing right because in the grand scheme of things there is no right and wrong. Just action and reaction.
That is a very good point, and I have thought of that at length as well. But to counter that, what happens to us people with semi-normal lives? I have been around for 20 years, and I think I have had a fairly easy road so far. What happens to me in the next step? Do I get to be the exact opposite end of FrequencyOmen's stick :lol: and have to deal with tragedy? My only way of trying to figure out suffering here would be maybe to throw out the idea of past life/karma. Perhaps this IS the next plane of existence, and they are suffering here for wrong doings in a past life?
 

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ow, my head hurts now... time for bed :zzzz:
 

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Discussion Starter #12
I wouldnt worry too much about the Jews and Muslims cause we all worship pretty much the same God. The Hindus are the only ones who are completely different, but then again, maybe they're onto something we aren't?

As far as believing in God as opposed to not believe in a God, I agree with Paschal's Wager. Basically, it's better to bet on believing in a God and ultimately being right as opposed to vice versa. Life would ultimately be meaningless otherwise.

I would LOVE to live in the comfort knowing everything written in the bible (New testament) is 100% accurate but I know its not the case. I pray everynight and I sincerely hope that there is a God and a heaven and things arent as complicated as I think but until the day I die, I will never know.

Another trivial question Ive wondered, If you die in space or on another planet...what happens to your soul then? I know many will say the answer is obvious but what if it isnt that simple?

Oh lord, I could go on...
 

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MSCDCarFreak said:
What happens to me in the next step? Do I get to be the exact opposite end of FrequencyOmen's stick :lol:
What's THAT supposed to mean?

hoevito said:
Another trivial question Ive wondered, If you die in space or on another planet...what happens to your soul then? I know many will say the answer is obvious but what if it isnt that simple?
Now there's something to think about. Bear with me on what I'm about to say, cuz it's pretty far out there (no pun intended): Supposedly, according to those people who claim they can travel outside of their bodies, there is a barrier beyond the moon that doesn't allow them to go any further. How's that for odd? Or for a pile of nonsense?
 

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here is also something that may blow your mind...Even the demons believe in god,but you wont see them in heaven.
their is only one way to get into heaven and that is through faith.trusting in Jesus that he died for YOUR and MINE sins.
Its like those old school drivers ed courses,they have the driver having a steering wheel and the instructor having a steering wheel,god is the instructor and what we need to do is take our steering wheels off and just enjoy the ride that godhas instore for our lives.
 

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the posibility of the exsistence of a being which could be called god is equeal to the posibility that one doesn't exsist......the posibility of any religion (human or otherwise) guessing his motives is 999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999 to 1.
 

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FrequencyOmen said:
What's THAT supposed to mean?
I didn't mean any ill, I just thought your drawing was funny :thumbsup:
 

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Wow what wonderful and thoughtful questions and a great respectful converstaion I might add (joy to read through). I want to chime in with some straight to the point answers, however some of them get a little complicated so hang with me.........

So much (if not all thats being discussed here) can be answered through study of the scriptures (notice I did not say "reading the Bible"). God teaches us alot about Himself, but often in small increments as we journey through His book.

Here goes some key points to consider:

Assuming God does exist, how did "he" come to exist? Does "God", whomever you may want him to be have a creator? If everything has a beginning then it would only make sense that "God" would too right?
God said "I am that I am" , He told Moses (when he asked who should I said sent me?) that "I am" sent me. The Holy Trinity has always been and will always be. Its impossible to fathom as humans a being that has no begining. Do you realize that God holds all of us (the entire universe included) as a thought in His mind? He simply spoke us into existance. None of our world would exist save the for a thought in the mind of God. The Bible teaches us that the entire universe exists through Jesus Christ and because of Jesus Christ. Allow me to quote scripture from The Book of John, chapter one:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.


What was "God" doing for the roughly 14-16 billion years before human existance
A VERY IMPORTANT concept to get your arms around is that God operates OUTSIDE of time and its constraints. He is in all places and all times simutanuously. Also remember its already finished (in Gods mind). God started with the end and created backwards to the begining. Everything we will all do, say, experience, etc has already happened but we must "live" through it. God is already there so to speak. Also realize that the Bible makes it clear that "time" as WE measure it is not particularly significant (a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years is but a day unto the Lord)


All that exists came to be by some cause and I feel that whatever is the "cause" is the path to discovering "God".
You got that right :thumbsup:

Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man comes to the Father but by me"

Noone knows what happens when you die, and we never will.
Actually we all will (when we die), I assume you meant while we are alive in the first life.

There is alot of suffering in this world, I don't think an eternally kind "overlord" would let it get to the point it has.
Yes there is as a result of MANS sin against God and against himself. Thank mans sin nature for the suffering.

So this makes me think that maybe there are different areas of heaven
Please permit me to bold this for proper emphasis.........

THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY TO HEAVEN and that is through Jesus Christ, ANYTHING else is an absolute lie.

Another trivial question Ive wondered, If you die in space or on another planet...what happens to your soul then? I know many will say the answer is obvious but what if it isnt that simple?
Absent from the body, present with the Lord. The soul of a believer goes immediately and directly to Jesus Christ, no matter how or where you die

Even the demons believe in god,but you wont see them in heaven.
Intresting and so true....... I love this passage of scripture were Jesus kicks some demon butt:

26They sailed to the region of the Gerasenes, which is across the lake from Galilee. 27When Jesus stepped ashore, he was met by a demonpossessed man from the town. For a long time this man had not worn clothes or lived in a house, but had lived in the tombs. 28When he saw Jesus, he cried out and fell at his feet, shouting at the top of his voice, “What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, don't torture me!” 29For Jesus had commanded the evil spirit to come out of the man. Many times it had seized him, and though he was chained hand and foot and kept under guard, he had broken his chains and had been driven by the demon into solitary places. 30Jesus asked him, “What is your name?” “Legion,” he replied, because many demons had gone into him. 31And they begged him repeatedly not to order them to go into the Abyss. 32A large herd of pigs was feeding there on the hillside. The demons begged Jesus to let them go into them, and he gave them permission. 33When the demons came out of the man, they went into the pigs, and the herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and was drowned

"my name is legion for we are many"............... great stuff


I will leave you guys with this parting thought from the mind of God:

From the Book of Isaiah chapter 55

8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:

11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

We are have our place and God has His :hi:
 

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n0idz said:
Hmmm....In God's world there is no time. He created time in our world, that would have been his first order of business.
I would agree in part.........

Time is at the mercy of God and submits to His will. Remember when God stopped time once?
 
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