Dodge SRT Forum banner
1 - 20 of 24 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
43 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
..........for being able to make such big power on the stock internals and tranny. Just a little frustrated with my RL right now. That is all :hi:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,626 Posts
:crying: just kidding. you dont have to make power to go fast around a track. you have to have traction to be able to be fast.


tommy
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
43 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Blue_Streek said:
:crying: just kidding. you dont have to make power to go fast around a track. you have to have traction to be able to be fast.


tommy
Hahaha..........I hear ya bud. I lack power, traction and durability. Yay for GM!!!! I just wish I could go a little further with the car right now but I'm pretty much stuck without ripping into the internals. The tranny...........well, there is no fix for that thing :gay:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
43 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
nigthmare_reborn said:
drop the sc, get an intake manifold, and put a turbo on that sucker!!!!

a sc on a 4 cyl makes it realy hard to go for big numbers, not impossible but it takes a lot more work.
You're right, the s/c will never make the big numbers that a turbo makes. However, the s/c was a big reason I bought this thing. I love the instant response. Honestly, it would be cheaper and more effective to get a SRT than to turbo this car. The tranny can't handle it and our #4 piston keeps goin pop for some unknown reason :stab: If those two things weren't a factor then we could make some really good numbers with just a blower swap. A couple of companies are workin on twinscrew kits right now........but again, I just don't think the rest of the car can handle it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
717 Posts
Odd, I seem to remember reading an article about how the forced induction ecotec blocks hold up good to 400+ HP back when the RL first came out ... can't say I have heard anything about the trany.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,429 Posts
Did you have an option to buy an SRT at the time you bought he RL? Why'd you pick the RL other than the instant torque?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,626 Posts
what you need to do is add the turbo for a twin set-up. and yes the eco-tecs can hold the power just like the srt blocks. the pro-compact racers claimed to be using the stock cranks make like 600hps...


tommy
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
43 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
pyro530 said:
Odd, I seem to remember reading an article about how the forced induction ecotec blocks hold up good to 400+ HP back when the RL first came out ... can't say I have heard anything about the trany.
Indeed, the blocks on these cars are actually very strong. I've heard that they'll hold around 900-1,000 HP before you need to upgrade to the Ecotec race block. We also have a nice forged crank and rods..........the pistons on the other hand are pure junk. There seems to be a recurring issue with the #4 piston breaking. There's speculation that it may be a fueling issue but as of right now nobody has figured out the mystery. We have a few people in the community researching it.

The tranny, like the engine, is a Saab unit. A Saab F35 to be exact, the same one used in the turbo 9-3. Unfortunatly, there are no upgrades for it and they tend to grenade under pressure. The open diffs, like mine, are especially prone to failure. Most of our dealers (Chevy, Saturn, GMPP) won't touch them because they don't have the special tools to do the work on them and Saab won't work on our cars because.........well, they aren't Saabs by brand. Combine the weak tranny with clutches that slip badly and marginal axles............well, let's just say the powertrain isn't the strongest.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
43 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Matterbaiter said:
Did you have an option to buy an SRT at the time you bought he RL? Why'd you pick the RL other than the instant torque?
I sure did and I planned on doing just that. I've always owned Mopars and I remember reading about the SRT-4 in a magazine just prior to it's release. I was so damn excited! I went to test drive one as soon as my local dealership got it and had a less than stellar experience. The salesman was a complete idiot and was being a total ass to me as well. I went to get in the car to take it out and nearly crushed my man parts on the bottom bolster. That was the last straw, my friend and I walked right out and I didn't even get to drive the damn thing :crying: I wound up buying a VW Jetta the next day and WOW..........what a mistake that was. When I was ready to trade the VW in the SRT had been out for a couple of years and I almost went back..........then I saw a Redline on Streetfire. I began to educate myself about the car as it had sparked my interest. I've always been partial to superchargers and I couldn't get over the fact that Saturn had produced something like this. All the info at the time seemed to show a car with a good pedigree and a lot of potential. I really liked the suicide doors. I have a family and I could have the 4 door car with the coupe look. The biggest factor though was safety. The Ions crash tested very well. The Neon, not so much. Tragedy had already struck in the SRT community a couple of times by then and I felt my daughter would be much safer in the Saturn. Wasn't very long before I had the RL in my driveway. That's the way it went.
I wish I would have stayed Mopar now, like I always had. Here's my other baby, from Ma Mopar's glory days:

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,712 Posts
Dayum, it's gotta be REALLY small if you are on the outskirts of Turlock. Turlock itself is nothing but a dairy queen and an AmPm with a few turn outs. ..oh and cows.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
917 Posts
SNOOPALOOP said:
Dayum, it's gotta be REALLY small if you are on the outskirts of Turlock. Turlock itself is nothing but a dairy queen and an AmPm with a few turn outs. ..oh and cows.


:rofl:


really tho. anything aside from modesto, tracy, manteca, and murced is most likely EXTREMELY small.

i remember going to a lil doohickey town on the outskirts of modesto called riverbank, and it amazed me. felt like i was in the 80s
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,310 Posts
BlownSaturn said:
Indeed, the blocks on these cars are actually very strong. I've heard that they'll hold around 900-1,000 HP before you need to upgrade to the Ecotec race block. We also have a nice forged crank and rods..........the pistons on the other hand are pure junk. There seems to be a recurring issue with the #4 piston breaking. There's speculation that it may be a fueling issue but as of right now nobody has figured out the mystery. We have a few people in the community researching it.

The tranny, like the engine, is a Saab unit. A Saab F35 to be exact, the same one used in the turbo 9-3. Unfortunatly, there are no upgrades for it and they tend to grenade under pressure.
EGT probes in every exhaust port would help narrow down when and what is going on with the piston issue. Innovate has a new 4-channel EGT controller that can be added pretty reasonably to one of their data logging wideband kits. You could also look at the PCM code and see if GM is providing extra pulse-width on that cylinder to try to richen it up, which might not be enough when modifications are done. It could be fueling or very possibly and air flow issue with the intake manifold design or possibly even a cylinder cooling issue depending on coolant flow path through the engine/head.

The engine has a lot of "Saab influence" but is not a Saab engine. They Saab variant utilizes a different and better flowing head and have a lot of other small differences. About the only major components in common are the block and crank. The piston/rod combo in the Saab 2.0T and the LSJ both come from Mahle (like the SRT-4) but the LSJ uses slightly weaker powder metal forged, fracture-spilt rods vice the Saab which uses conventional forged steel fractured-split rods and different pistons.

Odd that some cars are having issues with the F35 and makes you question if there are some other internal differences besides gearing from the Saab boxes. The F35 is still used on the 9-5's which have a lot more power and torque (260hp and 258 ft-lbs with an overboost function that allows for up to 20-seconds at 273 ft-lbs) as well as weighing about 600 pounds more than the Ion/Cobalt. In Europe you can order one through the dealer with an aftermarket Hirsch Performance package that pumps power to 305hp and 310 ft-lbs of torque and maintains factory warranty. The transaxle is based on an older Saab design and in the old 9000's and NG900's they did have issues with grenading but the newer ones have been much better. No one in the US does anything to upgrade the new ones that I know of but you might talk with some of the European tuners and builders. There's some standing up very well behind way more power than the LSJ can even handle.

http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en/product_services/2007/Whats New/07_MU3.doc
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,114 Posts
BlownSaturn said:
Matterbaiter said:
Did you have an option to buy an SRT at the time you bought he RL? Why'd you pick the RL other than the instant torque?
I sure did and I planned on doing just that. I've always owned Mopars and I remember reading about the SRT-4 in a magazine just prior to it's release. I was so damn excited! I went to test drive one as soon as my local dealership got it and had a less than stellar experience. The salesman was a complete idiot and was being a total ass to me as well. I went to get in the car to take it out and nearly crushed my man parts on the bottom bolster. That was the last straw, my friend and I walked right out and I didn't even get to drive the damn thing :crying: I wound up buying a VW Jetta the next day and WOW..........what a mistake that was. When I was ready to trade the VW in the SRT had been out for a couple of years and I almost went back..........then I saw a Redline on Streetfire. I began to educate myself about the car as it had sparked my interest. I've always been partial to superchargers and I couldn't get over the fact that Saturn had produced something like this. All the info at the time seemed to show a car with a good pedigree and a lot of potential. I really liked the suicide doors. I have a family and I could have the 4 door car with the coupe look. The biggest factor though was safety. The Ions crash tested very well. The Neon, not so much. Tragedy had already struck in the SRT community a couple of times by then and I felt my daughter would be much safer in the Saturn. Wasn't very long before I had the RL in my driveway. That's the way it went.
I wish I would have stayed Mopar now, like I always had. Here's my other baby, from Ma Mopar's glory days:

QUOTE]

Hey man the exact same thing happened to me. I went in to a Dodge Dealership to get an SRT and the dealer was just a punk and tried to horribly rip me off. The only other car on my radar was the Saturn RL. So I just walked down to Saturn and left with an RL with a great deal! A year later I end up totalling the car. So I went to a different doge dealership and left with a SRT :thumbsup:

This was my accident. :crying:



 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,472 Posts
blackbird_R/T said:
BlownSaturn said:
Indeed, the blocks on these cars are actually very strong. I've heard that they'll hold around 900-1,000 HP before you need to upgrade to the Ecotec race block. We also have a nice forged crank and rods..........the pistons on the other hand are pure junk. There seems to be a recurring issue with the #4 piston breaking. There's speculation that it may be a fueling issue but as of right now nobody has figured out the mystery. We have a few people in the community researching it.

The tranny, like the engine, is a Saab unit. A Saab F35 to be exact, the same one used in the turbo 9-3. Unfortunatly, there are no upgrades for it and they tend to grenade under pressure.
EGT probes in every exhaust port would help narrow down when and what is going on with the piston issue. Innovate has a new 4-channel EGT controller that can be added pretty reasonably to one of their data logging wideband kits. You could also look at the PCM code and see if GM is providing extra pulse-width on that cylinder to try to richen it up, which might not be enough when modifications are done. It could be fueling or very possibly and air flow issue with the intake manifold design or possibly even a cylinder cooling issue depending on coolant flow path through the engine/head.

The engine has a lot of "Saab influence" but is not a Saab engine. They Saab variant utilizes a different and better flowing head and have a lot of other small differences. About the only major components in common are the block and crank. The piston/rod combo in the Saab 2.0T and the LSJ both come from Mahle (like the SRT-4) but the LSJ uses slightly weaker powder metal forged, fracture-spilt rods vice the Saab which uses conventional forged steel fractured-split rods and different pistons.

Odd that some cars are having issues with the F35 and makes you question if there are some other internal differences besides gearing from the Saab boxes. The F35 is still used on the 9-5's which have a lot more power and torque (260hp and 258 ft-lbs with an overboost function that allows for up to 20-seconds at 273 ft-lbs) as well as weighing about 600 pounds more than the Ion/Cobalt. In Europe you can order one through the dealer with an aftermarket Hirsch Performance package that pumps power to 305hp and 310 ft-lbs of torque and maintains factory warranty. The transaxle is based on an older Saab design and in the old 9000's and NG900's they did have issues with grenading but the newer ones have been much better. No one in the US does anything to upgrade the new ones that I know of but you might talk with some of the European tuners and builders. There's some standing up very well behind way more power than the LSJ can even handle.

http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en/product_services/2007/Whats New/07_MU3.doc

:eric:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,144 Posts
blackbird_R/T said:
BlownSaturn said:
Indeed, the blocks on these cars are actually very strong. I've heard that they'll hold around 900-1,000 HP before you need to upgrade to the Ecotec race block. We also have a nice forged crank and rods..........the pistons on the other hand are pure junk. There seems to be a recurring issue with the #4 piston breaking. There's speculation that it may be a fueling issue but as of right now nobody has figured out the mystery. We have a few people in the community researching it.

The tranny, like the engine, is a Saab unit. A Saab F35 to be exact, the same one used in the turbo 9-3. Unfortunatly, there are no upgrades for it and they tend to grenade under pressure.
EGT probes in every exhaust port would help narrow down when and what is going on with the piston issue. Innovate has a new 4-channel EGT controller that can be added pretty reasonably to one of their data logging wideband kits. You could also look at the PCM code and see if GM is providing extra pulse-width on that cylinder to try to richen it up, which might not be enough when modifications are done. It could be fueling or very possibly and air flow issue with the intake manifold design or possibly even a cylinder cooling issue depending on coolant flow path through the engine/head.

The engine has a lot of "Saab influence" but is not a Saab engine. They Saab variant utilizes a different and better flowing head and have a lot of other small differences. About the only major components in common are the block and crank. The piston/rod combo in the Saab 2.0T and the LSJ both come from Mahle (like the SRT-4) but the LSJ uses slightly weaker powder metal forged, fracture-spilt rods vice the Saab which uses conventional forged steel fractured-split rods and different pistons.

Odd that some cars are having issues with the F35 and makes you question if there are some other internal differences besides gearing from the Saab boxes. The F35 is still used on the 9-5's which have a lot more power and torque (260hp and 258 ft-lbs with an overboost function that allows for up to 20-seconds at 273 ft-lbs) as well as weighing about 600 pounds more than the Ion/Cobalt. In Europe you can order one through the dealer with an aftermarket Hirsch Performance package that pumps power to 305hp and 310 ft-lbs of torque and maintains factory warranty. The transaxle is based on an older Saab design and in the old 9000's and NG900's they did have issues with grenading but the newer ones have been much better. No one in the US does anything to upgrade the new ones that I know of but you might talk with some of the European tuners and builders. There's some standing up very well behind way more power than the LSJ can even handle.

http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en/product_services/2007/Whats New/07_MU3.doc
listen to this guy... he knows his shit. very well known and respected in the mopar community. :readclose
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
43 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
blackbird_R/T said:
EGT probes in every exhaust port would help narrow down when and what is going on with the piston issue. Innovate has a new 4-channel EGT controller that can be added pretty reasonably to one of their data logging wideband kits. You could also look at the PCM code and see if GM is providing extra pulse-width on that cylinder to try to richen it up, which might not be enough when modifications are done. It could be fueling or very possibly and air flow issue with the intake manifold design or possibly even a cylinder cooling issue depending on coolant flow path through the engine/head.

The engine has a lot of "Saab influence" but is not a Saab engine. They Saab variant utilizes a different and better flowing head and have a lot of other small differences. About the only major components in common are the block and crank. The piston/rod combo in the Saab 2.0T and the LSJ both come from Mahle (like the SRT-4) but the LSJ uses slightly weaker powder metal forged, fracture-spilt rods vice the Saab which uses conventional forged steel fractured-split rods and different pistons.

Odd that some cars are having issues with the F35 and makes you question if there are some other internal differences besides gearing from the Saab boxes. The F35 is still used on the 9-5's which have a lot more power and torque (260hp and 258 ft-lbs with an overboost function that allows for up to 20-seconds at 273 ft-lbs) as well as weighing about 600 pounds more than the Ion/Cobalt. In Europe you can order one through the dealer with an aftermarket Hirsch Performance package that pumps power to 305hp and 310 ft-lbs of torque and maintains factory warranty. The transaxle is based on an older Saab design and in the old 9000's and NG900's they did have issues with grenading but the newer ones have been much better. No one in the US does anything to upgrade the new ones that I know of but you might talk with some of the European tuners and builders. There's some standing up very well behind way more power than the LSJ can even handle.

http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en/product_services/2007/Whats New/07_MU3.doc
Wow.......let me start by saying that I'm very impressed with your knowledge of the Ecotec and the LSJ specifically. However, I have to correct a couple of mistakes here. The LSJ IS indeed the Saab 2.0T engine and has very little difference. It's almost as if GM simply removed the turbo and added the supercharger but there are a couple of other subtle differences. The head is the same. I'll give you a quote per the saturnfans website regarding the LSJ specs:
"Key components that carry over from the Saab 2.0-liter engine into the Ecotec 2.0L SC include direct mount oil cooler, oil jets for piston cooling, heavy duty pistons, stronger connecting rods, forged steel crankshaft, larger oil sump, sodium filled exhaust valves for improved durability, and a high strength aluminum cylinder head."
I've also seen as much of my powertrain as is possible without going into the internals and all components down to the valve cover insert have SAAB etched into them.........including the head.
The LSJ also does not use the weak powdered metal rods as you suggested. I believe you are referring to the 2.4 VVT engine (RPO LE5) which does utilize those rods. Our rods still a bit of a mystery right now but IIRC they are machined, not fractured as in the SRT-4. Nobody that I know of has experienced rod failure at this point as the pistons seem to give well before anything else. When we correct that issue perhaps we can begin to have a better idea of their power tolerance.

Your suggestions for diagnosing the piston failure are very good indeed and more than a couple of people are looking into the issue with those very same ideas. I believe somebody just had 4 bungs put into their header to monitor EGT's but they have yet to install it. The fuel rail has been suspect according to various sources so a couple of custom rails with pressure gauges have been fabbed up to see if it's the weak link. The most likely candidate as of right now is the fuel pump itself. Fuel pressure is not read post fuel filter so any pressure drop from there to the rail will not be detected and compensated for. Boost-a-pumps have been utilized with moderate success but do not appear to be the answer either. A couple of people are also working to try to make a cost effecient way to convert our returnless fuel system to a return style. The problem with all of this is that it's our members having to take their limited time, resources, and to some point knowledge to correct a GM deficiency so the pace has been expectedly slow. The damage to the infamous #4 piston seems indicative of a detonation problem so hopefully we as a community are on the right track. However, as you mentioned, it could be a cooling problem much like the old Mopar turbo 2.2's had. To further compound a possible heat issue the oil cooler is located directly next to cylinder 4.

I can't really comment on the F35 as I've had no prior experience with it. They seem to have a tendency to spit the diff pin out. The problems have been mainly, however not exclusively, with the open diffs.

Sorry so long but it's rare that I get such an educated, well thought out response like this (no offense to anyone else). I get a little excited and well.......:rofl: Thank you again for the insight.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
43 Posts
Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Dealnightfire said:
Hey man the exact same thing happened to me. I went in to a Dodge Dealership to get an SRT and the dealer was just a punk and tried to horribly rip me off. The only other car on my radar was the Saturn RL. So I just walked down to Saturn and left with an RL with a great deal! A year later I end up totalling the car. So I went to a different doge dealership and left with a SRT :thumbsup:

Yikes.......now that's an accident right there. I assume you were okay as the cabin appears to have held up pretty well. Again, it's a big reason why I opted for the Saturn. I've seen a handful of RL's that have been involved in fairly catastrophic accidents and I haven't heard of a single person sustaining a significant injury. As a matter of fact, the closest thing we had to one was a guy that rolled his into some water. He actually drowned but had a friend that was following behind him who was luckily able to resuscitate him. His RL was toast but he was so impressed with the car that he bought a Saturn Vue. The steel space frames are stronger than most people realize. I'm glad things worked out for you :thumbsup:
 
1 - 20 of 24 Posts
Top