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I did what I found most people doing, prime the oil pump, do the first startup, run it to3k rpm for 15-20 mins, change the oil and filter, for the remaining break in I always varied the rpms between 1k-4k and downshifted constantly to keep the engine in as heavy vacuum as possible, I used break in oil for that warm up run, then did dino 10/30 with a shooter of the zddp engine break in additive for the first couple changes, then just 10/30, and just changed it to straight dino 10/40 after the break in.

And I don't have an erg, not sure how it is on the neons but I have an 03 pt cruiser gt so no egr
Just a slight rant, but it is absolutely pointless to "prime the oil pump" on these engines. I assume that you cranked it but somehow prevented it from starting so that it could prime? The problem is that is no different than just starting it. These engines are not v6, v8's where you can prime the oil pump with a drill without rotating the rotating assembly. Your not saving yourself from any destructive forces by doing it when the oil pump is driven off the crankshaft. The only way to safely prime these motors is to pressurize oil in a container then force it into the block. Any other method that involves turning the engine over to prime it is not saving you from anything. Thats what good assembly lube is for, to protect the components on first startup!

Also, unless your running cast iron rings like this is 1970, your rings seated themselves in about about 1 minute. All of those old break in procedures are carry overs from the baby boomers back when those procedures were accurate for a different ring style. Moly rings used in almost every thing today will seat themselves within the first few minutes, if not sooner. Your not hurting anything by attempting to break it in the way you did, but your break in ended well before you think it did.
 

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Discussion Starter #22
ya i read a bunch of back and forth on the forums about turning over the engine first vs. not turning it over, i didn't think it was a big deal, but the majority of info i found said to do it so i just figured i'd do it anyway. i'm used to building old v8's so some steps to the build i had to go by what the majority was saying while searching the forums, like at what point i can push boost after the build, etc.
 

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As for the noise profile, all engines are different and I guess yours is just that noisy. I don't think it is bad since you are experiencing that much noise with no-load. Unless you are knocking with no-load which I highly doubt. I wouldn't worry about the health of the enigne form now. They are fairly robust and if you followed the FSM for assembly you should be fine.

Do you have the BSA installed?
 

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Discussion Starter #24
ya, i followed every torque spec and tightening sequence to the letter building this thing (with the exception of some smaller things like that knock sensor lol), it runs really strong and like i was saying the plugs show no signs of detonation or running lean, just that knock count made me worry.

i gutted and machined the BSA housing to make a windage tray out of it, but no shafts or anything.
 

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I honestly don't think changing the internals changes the harmonics of the block that much. I am sure there is an effect but the knock sensor is tuned to a certain frequency range and is excited by it. Just think about what is actually in contact with the block itself (the piston rings). Everything else has a fluid barrier preventing metal to metal contact. Which to me says the harmonics of the block are pretty much set it stone unless you do some pretty drastic mods to the block itself (sleeving, making it out of a different material etc...). The balance shafts are there to eliminate 2nd order vibrations, I also do not believe that deleting them causes more noise because of the frequency that "vibration" is occuring at. If the knock sensor has a certain range that it is tuned for then the frequency that the balance shafts canceled out may not even register by the knock sensor at all. I know when I built my motor and did the same thing you did I never had a knock issue. Gutted my balance shafts and modified the assembly to fit around my strap kit.

You could just take knock sensor settings from the staged pcm calibration (reduced sensitivity) and see if that helps anything. Chrysler felt that those were safe settings and are probably still on the conservative side since it was a production add on. If you want, I can do the change for you or check your tune if somebody else did it...
 

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Discussion Starter #26
that would be awesome, i got the rescale setup from nigel but i'm not sure what all he changed, i know just from looking at it that he upped my redline to 7200 rpm, and i think he changed my fan profile for the 180* thermostat, here's what i'm running right now.
 

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IRT the BSA assembly I was thinking that it would make a little more noise if it was intact vice gutted or removed. I wasn't concerned about the vibrations.

Csmsach what is the knock voltage/rpm threshold for a stock engine? Being in a similar boat as the OP I am freshly rebuilt. I have analyzed my logs and anything over 0.5v and I start to get nervous. I have seen other EMS tunes that have similar knock thresholds. All are less than 1v. Does the stock PCM amplify it?
 

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Knock sensor thresholds are shown below. Cylinders 1 & 4 have identical values as well as Cylinder Cylinders 2 & 3. Note that Cylinders 2 & 3 have the highest voltage (least sensitive). This is probably due to the placement of the knock sensor itself.

Ordered from Lowest Voltage(1: most sensitive) to Highest Voltage(3: least sensitive)
1. Stock , Stage 1
2. Stage 2
3. Stage 3

Stock Calibration 05029415AH:

Cylinders 1 & 4
05029415ah_cyl1-4_knk_volts.jpg

Cylinders 2 & 3
05029415ah_cyl2-3_knk_volts.jpg

Stage 1 Calibration 0510057AD:

Cylinders 1 & 4
04510057ad_cyl1-4_knk_volts.jpg

Cylinders 2 & 3
04510057ad_cyl2-3_knk_volts.jpg

Stage 2 Calibration 04510850AA:

Cylinders 1 & 4
04510850AA_cyl1-4_knk_volts.jpg

Cylinders 2 & 3
04510850AA_cyl2-3_knk_volts.jpg

Stage 3 Calibration 04510061AB:

Cylinders 1 & 4
04510061AB_cyl1-4_knk_volts.jpg

Cylinders 2 & 3
04510061AB_cyl2-3_knk_volts.jpg
 

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Attached is the modified tune. I copied every equivalent Stage 3 knock sensor setting over. I did notice that there was a sensitivity Scalar that was set to a value of 3 by default in the GT tune. While the Stage 3 cal has a sensitivity setting of 1.5. That may or may not actually be the problem. If that works like I think it does then it is twice as sensitive as the Stage 3 by default. There is also a cal file included. Any CMR tuner can load that and it will apply all of the changes made to a stock calibration file. This is useful when your tune is locked and only the original tuner can open it.

View attachment stage3_knock_sensors_spress1.zip
 

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Knock sensor thresholds are shown below. Cylinders 1 & 4 have identical values as well as Cylinder Cylinders 2 & 3. Note that Cylinders 2 & 3 have the highest voltage (least sensitive). This is probably due to the placement of the knock sensor itself.

Ordered from Lowest Voltage(1: most sensitive) to Highest Voltage(3: least sensitive)
1. Stock , Stage 1
2. Stage 2
3. Stage 3

Stock Calibration 05029415AH:

Cylinders 1 & 4
View attachment 88978
Cylinders 2 & 3
View attachment 88986

Stage 1 Calibration 0510057AD:

Cylinders 1 & 4
View attachment 88994

Cylinders 2 & 3
View attachment 89002

Stage 2 Calibration 04510850AA:

Cylinders 1 & 4
View attachment 89010

Cylinders 2 & 3
View attachment 89034

Stage 3 Calibration 04510061AB:

Cylinders 1 & 4
View attachment 89026

Cylinders 2 & 3
View attachment 89018
Outstanding!! Thanks!!!

It seems as if I need to break out the det cans.
 

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Discussion Starter #33
awesome, thanks i'll give that a shot, one more question, is the amount of fuel you can add to a tune capped at a certain amount? i added the 40% the intune lets me add, then i backed up my tune and added another 40% and it seems to be doing nothing, i've went through this process 5 times now and can't break past a 12.8 afr from 4k+ and calculating my injector duty cycle leaves me at the exact same percentage at the same rpms regardless of the fuel i add in the tune, for example tonight i did a data run, was at a 12.9 @4-5k, parked, went into my wot fuel, which was zero'd out in the intune, maxed the fuel at 40%, did another run, same afr, and looking at the data logs the duty cyle is identical at 49.1%, the thing just won't give me anymore fuel
 

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Looking at your tune file, I am going to say your out of fuel or your tune does not reflect the fueling setup you are really running. The open loop afr table is set to 6.0 at max pratio and rpm. I assume you did this with the handheld and not the original tuner. What is your fuel setup? RRFPR? If so, what base pressure? Is it connected to boost only? What injectors do you have? What are they rated at from the manufacturer?(typically cc/min @ 43.5 psi).

Your Open Loop Table:
open_loop_arf.jpg

Your injector rescale was done with a 1.58 multiplier. Not knowing what injectors you have, or your setup I *could* guestimate that you have 790cc/min injectors (which I have never heard of) if your stock injectors were the 577cc/min ones. Or 721 cc/min injectors if you started with the pink 527cc/min injectors. I don't know what the GT PT came with.

How to calculate the injector multiplier:
(This is just an estimate, but tends to be the starting point if you don't have the injector flow sheet)
injector_multiplier.jpg
Yes, I write like a girl lol...
 

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Discussion Starter #35
no return line yet, i just have a walbro 255 and dw 750 injectors, though on the flow sheet's they are actually rated at [email protected], and yes i did it with the handheld, the original tune was super lean at WOT, can't remember the exact afr numbers, but my duty cycle was at 33%, i'm only running spring pressure @ 10psi right now i didn't think i'd be anywhere near running out of fuel yet.
 

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So it looks like the GT PT came with the 527cc/min injectors stock. Your injector rescale was done assuming the injectors were 577.1cc/min. I also don't believe they should have been rescaled for 790cc/min. That flow rating needs to be adjusted for n-Heptane which is what Chrysler used to flow test the injectors. I am just dropping the rescale down to 712cc/min to compensate.

Attached is that tune as well as your Open Loop AFR table set to what the 93oct tune has ~11.997. I can return it to what was originally done by the tuner but I would need the original version before your adjusted it via the handheld.

View attachment dw750_wS3knk_spress1.zip
 

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Discussion Starter #37
sweet, thanks i'll give it a shot tonight after work, i just did the fuel pump rewire today at the shop this morning too, that was good for .5 lol, went from 12.9 to 12.4 afr, i'm hoping i'm not somehow out of fuel already, i've heard a walbro 255 and 750's should be good for 450whp or so, doubt i'm there at 10psi on a 3076r
 

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Yeah, I doubt your out of fuel at 10psi on that turbo. Something else is definitely happening. Hopefully this is a step in the right direction.
 

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Discussion Starter #39
so i noticed something while i was out this time that i haven't noticed before because i don't normally hold the programmer in my hand and actively check values, my temp sensor in the charge pipe is obviously screwed and giving a constant reading of -87F, could this whole fuel problem be the ecm screwing with my fuel based on the fact that it thinks we're on another planet lol
 

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I am sure it affects it some, but I think the temp sensor is going to affect the timing more directly than fuel.
 
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