Brake Rust

1841 Views 17 Replies 9 Participants Last post by Todd TCE, Oct 16, 2004

Spider9313

Discussion Starter · Oct 5, 2004

Ok, I have done some research on this but I want it to be more clear! The brakes discs rust, that is a fact. But what kind of damage should that do?

I am hearing, "very little" from this community about it. The reason that this orange corrosion intrigues me of late is the episode that I am having with it.

I washed my car. You ever wash your car? Well it happened to me. I washed it and noticed that there was rust on the discs, I vaguly recall seeing it before and thought nothing of it.

So I am driving and I am hearing a scratching/grinding noise coming from the back. I check the wheels to make sure that there isn't any "funky business" happening, to me I see all the discs and brakes look similar throughout the entire car. Again, i think very little of it and go about my merry business.

Ok, I start to think that this sound is a little strange so I take it in (it has been a week since I noticed the noise) and they tell me that something (they were very vague about it) got inbetween the pad and the discs and caused wear. 2 of the discs and 2 of the pads and a few other things are going to need replacing!!!

This is going to cost $811 according to Jim McNatt Dodge in Denton TX.

That, to me, is unacceptable especially since all I did was wash my car. They said that the warrenty does not cover this and that he "was unable to get Dodge to pay for it".

I looked in the warrenty and it says nothing about not covering rust due to normal circumstances. All I use the car for is school and work. Normal enough, I do not race it (in street races or any formal type of race), drive it in the desert and I live in TEXAS where it is dry most of the year.

The point: does this sound like an acceptable situation? Am I in the wrong? Is there anything I can do about it? I don't think that this is my fault.

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chubz

· #2 · Oct 5, 2004

How many miles do you have on your car 12month/12k miles should cover your brakes.

The rotors will rust because of the material that they are made of, that shouldnt effect the brake pads though. The rotors will rust over night due to normal night mildue.

Take your shit to another dealer. If they still wont do it. Go to pep boys and pick up a set of EBC rotors they are coated and will not rust. While your at it get a set of Semi-Ceramic Pads which will cut down on brake dust and give you better stopping power.

Spider9313

Discussion Starter · #3 · Oct 5, 2004

The Whining.

I have about 21K miles on it.

I am calling them today to bitch about the situation. If they still will not do it then I am going to another dealer.

Dale Seeley

· #4 · Oct 5, 2004

I wonder if the part of the desert you live in has sand. Sand can scratch things up pretty good, and when trapped between a pad and rotor might even do some damage.

Red Rust is a soft oxidation product, and is expected when choosing a pad compound. I'm pretty sure that red rust will not affect the pad and unless it gets bad enough that flakes of rust are becoming evident on the rotor, the rotor should not suffer from the oxidation.

Good luck,
Dale

battmain

· #5 · Oct 5, 2004

You can also visually inspect the pads and rotors yourself. Take the wheel off and look at the inside and outside pads. You will be able to see the backing plate and then the pad material. Should have at least 2mm pad left on both sides. If less, then your pads are gone. If none, then you've probably been putting the metal backing plate to the rotor. Replacement time for the rotor. You can do it yourself by removing two bolts. Since you're removed those two bolts to replace the rotors, the pads are easy to get to also. If everything looks ok, some noise isn't a problem with brakes, it's just that some people prefer not to hear it. You should hear what racing pads sound like on the street!

SRT4DRIVER

· #6 · Oct 5, 2004

the rust that I can see on mine after I wash it comes right off after a good stop, I doubt very highly that the rust caused the gouges in your rotors, must have been some other material in there. Good luck, Im sure they will fight you tooth and nail over this.

robino

· #7 · Oct 5, 2004

This is going to cost $811 according to Jim McNatt Dodge in Denton TX.

for a brake job?
cut the rotors, get new pads and you're all set.

Dale Seeley

· #8 · Oct 5, 2004

DO NOT "Turn" an SRT-4 or Neon rotor.... It will warp within a week of use.
Turning a stock rotor is about as bright as slotting or cross-drilling a stock rotor.

The rotors are not expensive. Pads aren't expensive. It's not hard to do the work yourself, and if you keep the car clean, you won't even get dirty...

$811 for a brake job is robbery, spend the money on a jack, jackstand, 10mm ratchet wrench (for the rear), and an 11mm ratchet wrench (for the front).

If you can change a tire without getting hurt, you can change the brakes... If you want to learn how, and have nobody local to show you, PM me with your phone number and I'll walk you through it over the phone.

Dale

robino

· #9 · Oct 5, 2004

dale,

any reason why these rotors can't be turned?
not like the old days huh...they make parts with shit materials or what?

Dale Seeley

· #10 · Oct 5, 2004

robino said:
dale,

any reason why these rotors can't be turned?
not like the old days huh...they make parts with shit materials or what?

It's not like the old days at all. In the old days cars didn't have brakes that could generate heat.... In fact, it hasn't been that long since you could find drum brakes on the front of a car... you know, some cars still use drum brakes on the rear...

Because this isn't a Chevelle with a wimpy caliper/pad combo, or a Civic with a wimpy caliper/pad combo, or a wimpy caliper/pad combo in general...

Reduce the thickness of the rotor and you lose thermal mass. Cut the rotor and you add stress risors. Do either, then add the amount of heat an OEM caliper with an OEM pad can generate, or even worse, what a Brakeman pad can generate, and you'll be ruining stuff in a hurry...

The way I see it, when you ruin a rotor, you have two options.

You can replace it, and the brake pads, as intended, or....
You can have it machined, replace the pads, warp the rotor, replace the rotor and pads again....

The materials today are better, and they are put to better use. The only thing that hasn't been updated, in most cases, is the user interface....

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robino

· #11 · Oct 5, 2004

that's all you had to say *****...

strong SRT calipers will warp turned rotors...
what's the stock thickness on our rotors anyway?

battmain

· #12 · Oct 5, 2004

robino said:
dale,

any reason why these rotors can't be turned?
not like the old days huh...they make parts with shit materials or what?

Another reason is that the 'fine' folks running the cuting machines are never able to get both rotors the same thickness. This will cause the car to pull to side with the thicker rotor. We're talking thousandths of an inch. IMHO turning rotors are another way to make money. If they are gouged, replace 'em. Stay away from the impact wrenches too. They will also warp rotors. I take my tires in my truck to get them swapped. That way, the 'wonderful' techs can't break my lug bolts. Or put the nuts on so tight I break them when removing them.

Spider9313

Discussion Starter · #13 · Oct 6, 2004

Well the people at Dodge changed their story the very next day. I called them yesterday and they said that I had misinterpreted what they were saying. They were saying that I had to replace all roters and pads on the vehicle not just two and taht $811 was for all four wheels. They stated that they said nothing about crud inbetween the brake an the rotor that they said that they were worn out. period. If they had just SAID that then this whole thing could have been overted. I think it was the rep I was talking to... he seemed to have his head up his ass.

JAYRT4

· #14 · Oct 8, 2004

battmain said:
Another reason is that the 'fine' folks running the cuting machines are never able to get both rotors the same thickness. This will cause the car to pull to side with the thicker rotor. We're talking thousandths of an inch. IMHO turning rotors are another way to make money. If they are gouged, replace 'em. Stay away from the impact wrenches too. They will also warp rotors. I take my tires in my truck to get them swapped. That way, the 'wonderful' techs can't break my lug bolts. Or put the nuts on so tight I break them when removing them.

ya those brake surfacing machines are crap especially when u get your regular brake job guy doing them, alot of brake shops don't have very many automotive techs in there maybe 1 out of like 4-5 workers at any given time, if i was to ever get my rotors or drums turned which i never have cause its not much more exspensive to just get new ones (honda civic), i would go to a reputable machine shop where they will have machinests that do the work generally have alot of expierience and they have laser cut machines and verify thikness sometimes, will print you out a report of there exact thikness before and after the cut etc....

Atlas

· #15 · Oct 15, 2004

Brake and rotor upgrade time! w00t!

Todd TCE

· #16 · Oct 15, 2004

"Another reason is that the 'fine' folks running the cuting machines are never able to get both rotors the same thickness. This will cause the car to pull to side with the thicker rotor. We're talking thousandths of an inch."

Man, where do you guys GET this stuff? You sit around and make it up as you go?

This statement is total BS. The thickness of a rotor will have no impact on the car 'pulling to one side'.

Now I MIGHT give you that if you cut only one rotor that the car will pull to the side of the UN CUT rotor for a short time due to those parts being friendly with one another. But in due time the new side will bed in as well.

This is as ridiculous as saying you must turn a rotor if you put new pads on it; The two parts (pad and rotor) will become friendly with each other in due time as the pad wears to match the irregularities of the rotor finish.

battmain

· #17 · Oct 15, 2004 (Edited)

Todd TCE said:
"Another reason is that the 'fine' folks running the cuting machines are never able to get both rotors the same thickness. This will cause the car to pull to side with the thicker rotor. We're talking thousandths of an inch."

This is as ridiculous as saying you must turn a rotor if you put new pads on it; The two parts (pad and rotor) will become friendly with each other in due time as the pad wears to match the irregularities of the rotor finish.

Nice try at a flame, but I'm better that. That statement comes from personal experience with the street car and also the race car. It appears that you're going to try to tell me that there is absolutely no way that the car will pull if the rotors are different thickness especially if you're using diagonal brake circuits. I would love to hear your explanation of why replacing those same rotors with brand new ones magically cured the pulling to one side. Same calipers, same pads, and that was after a few months. Shouldn't that be enough time for the rotors and pads to bed themselves? I'm all ears and so is everybody elses on the forum. I like to learn too.

That said, I'll put my old rotors on the race car and take you out for a spin and then put new rotors on the car and you will be able to physically see the difference under braking, between rotors that are similar in thickness and others that are not.

Why would you replace the rotor if it got gouged by the metal backing plate? It's still same thickness with some grooves from the backing plate in it no? I am waiting for the answer to that one. The fact is that you don't have to replace that rotor. It depends on the user. Now for your other statement, one reason that you use old pads with new rotors is that some pad material is incompatible with the other, especially when dealing with racing pads. You are absolutely right that they will eventually become friendly with each other but then I'll offer this: If the manufacturer recommends you do something, it is up to the user if they want to follow that advice or not. Same thing for the advice in this forum. It is up to the user to decide if he/she wants to follow the advice or not, isn't it? All that you are offering is an opinion as is everybody else on this forum. :hi:

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Todd TCE

· #18 · Oct 16, 2004

It's not intended as a flame at all.

You posted a comment which as stated is simply false. A vehicle will NOT pull to one side soley based on the fact that one rotor is thicker than another. People, kids, read this type of statement asume it must be true- it was on the forum.

I'd wager your current rotors are not even the same thickness. By your own words; "We're talking thousandths of an inch." Go mic them. I'm certainly not advocating one put a .900" rotor on the right and a 1.250" rotor on the left, at that it will not cause the car to pull, but obviously there are other issue wrong here. (Like piston displacement)

I'd also suggest that few if any brake workers turn them to the exacting standards you'd be happy with. That's fine, I'd like them to be at or near the same too. But not for the reasons you suggest. I'd prefer them to be as thick as possible, and for pad wear issues the same will help also on a sliding caliper. Granted I'd probably try to get them about the same on my lathe as well. But again; it has no impact on the car 'pulling'.

I'm not advocating that a heavily gouged rotor be run, or that it be completely cut out to make it flat either. I don't think I even mentioned damaged rotors. On the other hand I know of many a scored rotor which still runs and brakes just fine. And doesn't pull.

You've chosen to expand the scope of the comments further:
We did not discuss the use of old pads on new rotors at all. My comment was that many feel they must fit NEW pads when fitting NEW rotors- I don't subscribe to this. You appear to agree with this. Nor is it required that you REPLACE rotors when you fit new pads. You're 100% correct that pad transfer may hinder the new material from binding with the old rotor. Still, some scuffing with sand paper can easily over come this. Or a quick turning at fast speed or holding a coarse block on the rotor while turning on the brake lathe.

But back to your original question;
The exact cause of your initial problem may never be known for sure. I can only tell you that one rotor being .016" thinner than the other was not it. I'll assume you didn't mean that one was totally worn out and the other near new. You seem smarter than that. So what was the cause? My first guess would be that the narrower rotor had done one or more of the following:

First, the narrow rotor may have required the caliper piston to push out much further, thus losing bore concentricity. (sp?) This effects 'pull back' of the piston. In your case perhaps drag after initial application.

Second, the floating caliper is a lost cause for real brakes we all know. They are done for cost and packaging only. They have the habit of hanging up. Slider pins, slders, brackets all must move. This can lead to 'funny things' happening. And binding.

Third, pads hanging up in much the same manner can cause drag or hang up as well.

Lastly, the notion that this is the BAD side (because it locks up easy) is often fully the reverse of what's happening. I've looked at many brakes where complaints of pulling truly show the problem to be on the OTHER side. The one locking up is just fine- the one that is not locking up is your problem child. For much the same reasons stated above you can look at all of this in a new light. Add to it now; air trapped in the non locking caliper, poor pad bedding or pad glaze on the rotor of the non locking caliper.

Putting new rotors (and old pads) on can and did cure your problem and that's what you wanted. But as I originally stated; it's not the thickness of the rotors that directly caused the problem so telling people that numbnuts at the brake shop who cut one rotor .005" thinner is going to ruin your day isn't true.

If I mistakenly sold you a front .81 FSL kit and shipped you one rotor of .750" by mistake you'd never know it except that the pads wouldn't fit quite right and the calper body would be offset a tad. I'd gladly run it that way if there were no choice with full confidence that lock up on the .75 rotor would not be an issue.

Hoping this helps shead some more light.

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