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post #31 of 41 (permalink) Old 05-14-2019, 03:52 PM
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Ive heard https://boostane.com/ is the best but i'm not going to gamble on that. I'll just run a conservative E85 tune.

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post #32 of 41 (permalink) Old 05-14-2019, 05:39 PM Thread Starter
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E85 I'm reading up on that one...

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post #33 of 41 (permalink) Old 05-14-2019, 07:46 PM
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21 mpg vs 25 average driving 80mph all the time with no traffic. Still cheaper as 91 octane is 4.59 a gallon here vs 2.89 a gallon for e85. It is pretty much a no brainer nowadays. The only problem is EVERYONE runs it now. Now you have to beware of other cars that you used to think are slow are now boosted to hell now on the stuff.

2005 Big wheel stage 3, E85, BC rods, JE pistons stock 8:1 .020 over, BS delete, Sways & STbraces, coilovers valved by Feal, diy NACHO solid control arms.
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post #34 of 41 (permalink) Old 05-14-2019, 07:51 PM Thread Starter
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$4.59 a gallon, no kidding...


$3.35 here

E85 $2.26

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post #35 of 41 (permalink) Old 05-15-2019, 09:46 AM
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Back when my SRT-4 was new and I was tracking it near weekly I'd use the NOS Brand Racing Forumla octane booster as you can pick it up reasonably cheap at many auto part stores and it would allow Stage 2 w/toys to stay in high-octane mode (HOM) even when running significantly more boost than stock S2.

Like the "Race Gas" brand product in this thread, it uses MMT to increase knock resistance. While MMT can still be used at lower concentration in pump gas, most stations in the US have switched to ethanol and other blends to increase the effective octane rating.

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Originally Posted by T4EaterJonny View Post
Ive heard https://boostane.com/ is the best but i'm not going to gamble on that. I'll just run a conservative E85 tune.
They don't seem to have much product info listed and I haven't read up much on them, but I'd suspect they're also using MMT with some other additives. An easy way to check would be to request a Safety Data Sheet (SDS, which replaces the old Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDS)).



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Originally Posted by s3*ps2 View Post
I was expecting the old ones to be orange colored due to the "race Gas" and they were.

That's one of the downsides of using MMT in high concentrations. It builds up heavy deposits on the lugs and greatly reduces the service life. It's also bad for O2 sensors and builds up the same deposits that can degrade the ability to measure oxygen in the exhaust stream over time, but leaded race gas does the same thing.

For the question on black soot that should be carbon from running rich. If it's excessive, you're not getting knock and the exhaust gas temps (EGTs) are in check it could indicate you have room to reduce fuel enrichment.
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post #36 of 41 (permalink) Old 05-15-2019, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Simon.Starkie View Post
Those red deposits on the plugs sure look like they were cause by an MMT additive in you "race gas".
MMT is a very common additive often found in after market so-called "race Gas" additives with claim to turn Premium grade pump gas into "race gas".

I tried several brands myself many years ago and NOS was the best one I tried.
But all of those additives back then always left the red MMT deposits on the plug tips.

I had pretty good luck with water injection which steamed away the red MMT depositis faster than they cold accumulate.
But in the end, I found Unleaded 100 Octance Race Gas (VP was good stuff) allowd my Stage 3+Toys to hold HOM.

Unleaded Race gas was about $5 a gallon back then and it was definitely was "mo cheaper, mo bedder, mo faster".
And avoided the MMT deposits completely so I ditched the water injection.

I also tried a cocktail of C16 and Unleaded 100 octane when the car had a Mopar Cat Delete..
The S3+toys held HOM perfectly and performed the best it ever has.
I didn't like the white, lead deposits on the entire exhaust, especially the tailpipe.
I really didn't like the white lead deposits screwing up the accuracy of my Bosch O2 sensor especially!
But I guess you gotta pay to play, right?
Oh for sure, yeah I knew it was going to change the color. I didn't realize it would foul them though. Luckily plugs are su[per cheap and super easy to replace on these cars. Most time consuming part is gapping them.
I ran the Coolingmist setup and just water injection ON TOP of running e85 on my old S3 SRT-4. Lol. A bit overkill. I could never run HOM on my S3 setup, so that is why I went e85. "HOM" all the time 0 KR. It amazes me you have your plugs gapped at .055 and get no KR on S3 in Dab 2/3. 22psi or so? But the factory S3 tune is stupid rich.

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Originally Posted by T4EaterJonny View Post
Ive heard https://boostane.com/ is the best but i'm not going to gamble on that. I'll just run a conservative E85 tune.
Debateable, I hear "race gas" is better probably the same thing really. Both add effective octane.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackbird_R/T View Post
Back when my SRT-4 was new and I was tracking it near weekly I'd use the NOS Brand Racing Forumla octane booster as you can pick it up reasonably cheap at many auto part stores and it would allow Stage 2 w/toys to stay in high-octane mode (HOM) even when running significantly more boost than stock S2.

Like the "Race Gas" brand product in this thread, it uses MMT to increase knock resistance. While MMT can still be used at lower concentration in pump gas, most stations in the US have switched to ethanol and other blends to increase the effective octane rating.

They don't seem to have much product info listed and I haven't read up much on them, but I'd suspect they're also using MMT with some other additives. An easy way to check would be to request a Safety Data Sheet (SDS, which replaces the old Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDS)).




That's one of the downsides of using MMT in high concentrations. It builds up heavy deposits on the lugs and greatly reduces the service life. It's also bad for O2 sensors and builds up the same deposits that can degrade the ability to measure oxygen in the exhaust stream over time, but leaded race gas does the same thing.

For the question on black soot that should be carbon from running rich. If it's excessive, you're not getting knock and the exhaust gas temps (EGTs) are in check it could indicate you have room to reduce fuel enrichment.
Would it be a good idea to replace my upstream 02 sensor too after running that "race gas"? Would be nice if I could just take it off and clean it. I hear you can just have it sit in a bucket of gasoline according to google to clean it up lol. https://www.wikihow.com/Clean-an-Oxygen-Sensor Of course don't out the connector in there too like the picture shows.

Yeah I was curious on the black around it. Car seems to run great at WOT with AFRS in the low 11's. I just know on my tune I have that POP POP POP on decel where fuel is dumped on decel and timing retarded. Supposed to keep things cool. But if its not super beneficial I am sure my tuner, (duster360) can remove it. I only get around 21 mpg on my SRT-4 when I do drive it and I honestly don't get on it too much.

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post #37 of 41 (permalink) Old 05-15-2019, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by s3*ps2 View Post
Would it be a good idea to replace my upstream 02 sensor too after running that "race gas"? Would be nice if I could just take it off and clean it. I hear you can just have it sit in a bucket of gasoline according to google to clean it up lol. https://www.wikihow.com/Clean-an-Oxygen-Sensor Of course don't out the connector in there too like the picture shows.
There really isn't a way to clean them. Extended use of leaded race gas or if silicates get into the combustion chamber and into the exhaust (which is why there's "oxygen sensor safe RTV" and other sealants for gaskets made without silicone products) will run the sensors. Running occasional MMT may degrade them over time but shouldn't be as fast.

Since the stock narrowband sensor are effectively switches that dramatically change voltages at the stoichiometric point of 14.7:1 air-fuel ratio (where there's theoretically the perfect amount of air to burn all the fuel), if you have a wideband installed and it shows you're around the 14.2 to 14.9-to-1 range at idle and very light load cruising after the engine is warmed up and using closed loop, O2 sensor feedback, it's probably ok. If you notice the wideband showing the air-fuel ratio (AFR) quickly drifting to one extreme of that range or outside it at idle and light load cruising then it might be good to consider a replacement if all other sensor data feeding into the computer is ok (i.e. throtle position sensor, MAP, etc. don't have problems that could be affecting fueling).


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Yeah I was curious on the black around it. Car seems to run great at WOT with AFRS in the low 11's. I just know on my tune I have that POP POP POP on decel where fuel is dumped on decel and timing retarded. Supposed to keep things cool. But if its not super beneficial I am sure my tuner, (duster360) can remove it. I only get around 21 mpg on my SRT-4 when I do drive it and I honestly don't get on it too much.
The deceleration fuel shutoff on the "Stage" computers and many aftermarket tunes slightly keeps the fuel injectors pulsing until you reach a few miles an hour, while the stock computer calibration turns them completely off during coasting and at a much higher speed (off memory I want to say ~28 mph but would have to pull up a stock tune).

While it is worse for emissions and is dumping small amounts of fuel into the engine that get burnt in the exhaust tract to causing the popping, it's probably not the cause of excessive carbon buildup on the plugs. If the ceramic is somewhat white and not too brown or black (assuming no MMT use) you're probably fine with a little carbon building up over time.

Turbo engines run rich to help control EGTs due to the restriction of the turbo in the exhaust flow path and also to a point to help with knock. Light carbon is usually ok. Heavy carbon over the entire plug tip and electrode leading to misfires means it might be running too rich or if it's only on one or two cylinders, those cylinders have a weak ignition events that isn't successfully lighting the air-fuel mixture and leaves a lot of hydrocarbons building up.
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post #38 of 41 (permalink) Old 05-15-2019, 02:54 PM
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It amazes me you have your plugs gapped at .055 and get no KR on S3 in Dab 2/3. 22psi or so?
Well, it definitely seems to run much better with the plugs gapped at .055 and no spark blowout which seems to be why most people gap their plugs down.
Again, I think plenty of dielectric grease, new plugs (copper) every 2 years (8K miles), a decent coil-pack (original since 2003) and decent wires (Mopar since 2005) helps.

Note, with most brands of 91, it surely does get about 4 or 5 KR on the old Aeroforce Scanpro.
But not so if I use Union 76 Unleaded Premium and then it's 0 KR.

I don't think KR is necessarily bad for the car.
KR is Knock Retard which is simply the computer pulling a little timing to avoid knock (silent knock by all accounts).
And it doesn't take long, less than a couple of miles and a couple of WOT pulls for the adaptive to kick the ignition advance timing back up.
Especially at higher RPM's where a little more timing helps cooling a little and also reduces knock.

I'm at a complete loss to explain why this happens with my car.
But I'll take it even if Union 76 Unleaded Premium in the SF Bay Area currently costs $4.45 per gallon.
We don't have much corn around here anyway and if I ran it, I'd have to say adios to the stock S3 tune and S3 injectors too.
As well as the fuel pump, fuel level sender and other bits and pieces which E85 apparently causes problems with.

It's a pump gas, street car which is running perfectly now so no need to change anything - until the next biennial check.
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post #39 of 41 (permalink) Old 05-16-2019, 02:58 AM
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Ive never seen plug gap create knock....misfire and spark blow out sure but Ive never seen it cause knock. Heat range sure...plug gap not so much

The idea is to run the largest gap for full ignition...reduce gap only if the coil can't jump the gap or you're getting blow out

The car doesn't record ST knock unless the knock sensor picks it up (IE if it pulled timing....you're knocking)...KR on stock (brittle and cast) pistons will blow them apart pretty quick....anything beyond 1-2 counts. They don't tolerate much detonation at all. If your plugs are peppered.....listen to your scangauge or get your engine stand ready

go ahead...change yours too now; again

Last edited by lVlemphizStylez; 05-16-2019 at 03:06 AM.
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post #40 of 41 (permalink) Old 05-16-2019, 02:40 PM
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Ive never seen plug gap create knock....misfire and spark blow out sure but Ive never seen it cause knock. Heat range sure...plug gap not so much

The idea is to run the largest gap for full ignition...reduce gap only if the coil can't jump the gap or you're getting blow out

The car doesn't record ST knock unless the knock sensor picks it up (IE if it pulled timing....you're knocking)...KR on stock (brittle and cast) pistons will blow them apart pretty quick....anything beyond 1-2 counts. They don't tolerate much detonation at all. If your plugs are peppered.....listen to your scangauge or get your engine stand ready
Agree about the goal of running the largest ga without blowout - that's what I always understood too.

I can't account for the KR on gasoline brands other than Union 76 Unleaded Premium but it doesn't bother me.
It's been exactly like this since 2003 and the original hypereutectic pistons seem to be surviving.
In fact, the entire motor is fine but has gone through a few clutches (4) and a couple of water pumps-tensioners-timingbelt kits (2 - proactively).
The only time the motor has even been "cracked" was removal of the valve cover to replace it with a wrinkle black 2004 version.
And again to chamfer the cap caps per the "snapping" TSP and also to install Nemo's "dog whistle".

I do try to take care of the old equipment otherwise.
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post #41 of 41 (permalink) Old 05-17-2019, 08:59 AM
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Awesome read
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