my map clamp was only lettin the map see 11.9psi of boost at WOT....fuel psi was at 68....boost was 21-18 (3rd gear)....a/fs were in the 11s..in 4th it would dip to the 10.9s then back to 11s....
anyways according to the Aeroforce gauge...timing read 28* held there and peeked 29.5*....knock retard was still at 5.5-6.5 ....JUST LIKE ON PUMP GAS!!!
so i dunno whats up....although car pulled like a mother!!!...
0-6 kr is fine for the car in fact most cars normally run 6 kr on pump gas. anything over 5-6 kr is bad for the car. stage 3 even runs 6 kr out here in cali on 91 octane. if you have the car at a low kr, you just will be even safer .
Reed tuned my car and I am running the Devil's own progressive kit with a 80/20 meth/water mix, M5 nozzle, and starting @ 5#'s and full @ 10#'s. That is with a 50 trim kit and all supporting mods.
i think im going to start off with an m7 nozzle with the snow kit, (coems wiht a progressive 3 bar module.
so ill set it to probably start 7 full 20 , and run 21 22 psi
you want the water injection to come on as soon as possible because while your spooling your running lean and kr is rising. so you want to have it spray early so you can control the kr and tune the car easier.
Im a lead tech for bridgestone so i do understand all the values in the scan gauge. I have logged the scan tool (genesis) vs the gauge and its perfectly accurate from what i can see. I also have the meth kit on my car (stock turbo e-01 controlled boost but no fuel controll. ...and I would only see at best a 2* of knock which killed my timing down to about 17+ deg on a spoll of 20psi. Seems a dash of some 107 octane at the track should easily take care of that. Interesting the hp vs timing ratio given would be nice to see some of that dyno tested. But of course timing doesnt DIRECTLY relate to the hp one conpression motor vs anothers timing tables will yield a different hp # and so on it depends on alot more variables than that......after all the pcm's MAIN funtion is only controlling the air/fuel
Im a lead tech for bridgestone so i do understand all the values in the scan gauge. I have logged the scan tool (genesis) vs the gauge and its perfectly accurate from what i can see. I also have the meth kit on my car (stock turbo e-01 controlled boost but no fuel controll. ...and I would only see at best a 2* of knock which killed my timing down to about 17+ deg on a spoll of 20psi. Seems a dash of some 107 octane at the track should easily take care of that. Interesting the hp vs timing ratio given would be nice to see some of that dyno tested. But of course timing doesnt DIRECTLY relate to the hp one conpression motor vs anothers timing tables will yield a different hp # and so on it depends on alot more variables than that......after all the pcm's MAIN funtion is only controlling the air/fuel
2 counts of kr made your timing adv. 17??
thats strange even when i have up to 7 counts of kR ill have over 20 deg of timing adv (25 ish)
yes sir. went to play it back looks like it was accualy 1.0 made it 17....the next reading was .5 knock and 16.8timing before i hit it looks like the reading was 32timing ????weird i only have one scan guage so its hard to tell with no boost or rpm maps to match. I had the eo1 not recording
When I was running stage 1 with the stock intercooler, I'd see only 20 deg. advance with 0-1 deg. knock. My IAT's would hit 140 at the end of a run, which I believe was pulling some timing, or at least I hope it would. Now back to stage 0 with larger IC and see 26-27 deg. with IAT at ~80 deg. through the traps.
When I was running stage 1 with the stock intercooler, I'd see only 20 deg. advance with 0-1 deg. knock. My IAT's would hit 140 at the end of a run, which I believe was pulling some timing, or at least I hope it would. Now back to stage 0 with larger IC and see 26-27 deg. with IAT at ~80 deg. through the traps.
Todd
mmm ... raises a question of what would happen if one were to put a clamp on the ait sensor (one that would raise the intake temp)
so in reality its 89 intake temp but the sensor see's 140 +
When I was running stage 1 with the stock intercooler, I'd see only 20 deg. advance with 0-1 deg. knock. My IAT's would hit 140 at the end of a run, which I believe was pulling some timing, or at least I hope it would. Now back to stage 0 with larger IC and see 26-27 deg. with IAT at ~80 deg. through the traps.
Todd
mmm ... raises a question of what would happen if one were to put a clamp on the ait sensor (one that would raise the intake temp)
so in reality its 89 intake temp but the sensor see's 140 +
?? for big turbo guys id be kind of convinient
I remember Blackbird talking about this in another thread. He was tring to get some less timing for a big turbo car and was messing around telling the PCM threw the AIT sensor that the temps where higher, but i think he had limited success with it.
My view on the whole deal is the more you add to trick the PCM the more stuff to go wrong if something fails, the more confused the PCM will get, and the harder to tune the car. You might be able to get the lower timing with the AIT tricked, but if you tune aggressive with it working right and it fails, then your timing jumps back up to what it should be and you have problems. Making sure each part you add to the car works well with the other one, and works within the PCM's "sight" so to say, will give you greater gains than anything else.
This is a great thread and a value to this forum. Thanks blackbird and everyone else who contributed.
When I was running stage 1 with the stock intercooler, I'd see only 20 deg. advance with 0-1 deg. knock. My IAT's would hit 140 at the end of a run, which I believe was pulling some timing, or at least I hope it would. Now back to stage 0 with larger IC and see 26-27 deg. with IAT at ~80 deg. through the traps.
Todd
I would agree with Todd from what I have seen on my S0 with STOCK FMIC. That is .... the HIGHER IAT's result in the PCM automatically accounting for and compensating by REDUCING Total advance.
This -- in turn -- results in LOWER amounts of PCM- commanded KR timing retard.
A "closed loop" KR monitoring device that adjusted IAT signals to the PCM "MIGHT" be a way to tune timing.
However... it was mentioned earlier that Blackbird had limited success in this arena.
I wonder if he was electronically modifying the IAT based on KR feedback OR if he was simply using fixed values of resistors/potentiometers ?
I would expect that a "closed loop" approach using KR to control the IAT signal would be helpful in optimizing timing.
i just orderd a water meth kit in order to get the 6-7.5 deg of timing back
from what ive researched each deg of timing is worth 5-7 hp.
x 6-7.5? thats a pretty damb good amount of power
are you sure 5-7hp? lets see with HOM on (acording to mopar) a S2 car is suposed to be 280hp and with it off 260, and hom runs 8degrees more advance (about) so 20/8 = 2.5hp per degree or around that...wow sound about right...give or take a bit here or there?
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lag , good finding. 80/20 mix seems to be the best mixture for keeping knock down. good luck to you.
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