Me personally, I would say run less boost to get better timing. I was seeing lik 27 degrees timing advance at 18 psi with maybe 1 degree timing pulled up towards redline. No water/meth spraying. but with a 12.2 a/f falling to about 11.0 at redline. You can run more boost than that but it will just retard timing. I am not even sure the water meth will help with that since either way the S1 is going to see over 18 psi. The only way to trick it is to use a map clamp so that it doesn't see 18 psi. Those are my thoughts.
I don't shift exactly when power starts dropping off but like I said before that is why i don't go to redline. When I shift at 5800 rpm I usually drop down to between 3000-3500 (right back in the power band)
Yeah I don't know what it all means. My times aren't bad and my launch is improving but the power up top is falling off. I think shifting at 5900 should probably be it. WOT shifting I think will help my time as well.
Well Jon I don't think I want to adjust fuel right now. I don't or won't have the hardware to monitor it to really adjust it.
Scott- You should get the G-Tech from Russ ASAP and get a dyno run it. I'm sure he can help you. The best thing for you to do is make 3 runs and check them on the comp. Russel actually has everything you'll need to get the data and make your runs.
I would see what gears you are boosting over 18 in. Then try to lower it down to about 18-19 psi based on runs in those gears. Then see what you do on the g-tech for power. That would be the first thing I would do. If you decide to get a mapclamp you can borrow my wideband for alittle bit to tune your car with it to lean it out alittle to create more power. Get it to like a 11.5 or so. That should help in two areas. Leaner is more power. and trick the computer into thinking there is less boost than there is and not pull timing as much. That should help out alot. Mapclamp only $30.
Wow thanks scott, what a deal! Did I tell yo uthe G-Tech was also £3 a day? LOL
I'm spiking 20 and dropping to 15-16 then 12-13 @ redline. I think if I WOT shift @5900 maybe that would help. This next time I will try to launch at 4.5-5k. I want to break traction this time.
Scott, You do know that when you tune back fuel, you retard more timing. When you pull fuel, there is less unburned fuel in the cylinders. Problem is that the unburned fuel also acts as a cooling agent. The cylinder temps get alot higher and you therefore start to pull timing. The more fuel that is tuned back, the more timing will be pulled. The only way around that is REAL high octane gas or water meth. Also, 11.5 is still pretty rich. 12.5 is the ideal spot.
Kris, I understand that you dont want to mess with the fuel or boost lines so this is just an FYI.
Wow thanks scott, what a deal! Did I tell yo uthe G-Tech was also £3 a day? LOL
I'm spiking 20 and dropping to 15-16 then 12-13 @ redline. I think if I WOT shift @5900 maybe that would help. This next time I will try to launch at 4.5-5k. I want to break traction this time.
Kris
You do know that launching that high is going to be hell on your clutch. Also, there is going to be worse track prep this time. I really don't see anything good coming out of this.
yup, i understand that. That is why I love the wideband and the techguage timing gauge that we have. I tune it to where I am not pulling any timing and then stop. If that means you run richer than 12.2 (that is where I felt safe) then that is what you do. When I ran 18 psi, with a 12.2 a/f I only pulled about 1 degree of timing close to redline. I mean above 5500 rpm. and had like 27 degree timing advance at WOT.
That is very decent numbers there in my opinion. Alot of cars pull 1-2 degrees of timing as long as you are pulling fuel. I just depends on how much timing you are pulling. If I can stay at 2 degrees or less being pulled I am happy considering I was pulling anywhere between 3-9 degrees before.
Oh and Kris, i meant that in GBP's too. Can't figure out how to do the L thing.
yup, i understand that. That is why I love the wideband and the techguage timing gauge that we have. I tune it to where I am not pulling any timing and then stop. If that means you run richer than 12.2 (that is where I felt safe) then that is what you do. When I ran 18 psi, with a 12.2 a/f I only pulled about 1 degree of timing close to redline. I mean above 5500 rpm. and had like 27 degree timing advance at WOT.
That is very decent numbers there in my opinion. Alot of cars pull 1-2 degrees of timing as long as you are pulling fuel. I just depends on how much timing you are pulling. If I can stay at 2 degrees or less being pulled I am happy considering I was pulling anywhere between 3-9 degrees before.
Oh and Kris, i meant that in GBP's too. Can't figure out how to do the L thing.
Yeah but your car was pulling 3-9 degrees when you were clamped with S1. Then the KR went down when you put on the water meth. Now you are not retarding as much timing because S2 does not advance timing as much as S1. Trust me, I have done alot of reading into this. Have I ever steered you wrong before?
Yeah but your car was pulling 3-9 degrees when you were clamped with S1. Then the KR went down when you put on the water meth. Now you are not retarding as much timing because S2 does not advance timing as much as S1. Trust me, I have done alot of reading into this. Have I ever steered you wrong before?
Actually, I have to disagree with you there. I am seeing about the same timing advance with S2 and the S1 injectors as I was seeing with the S1 PCM. 2 degrees retard when I go over 5500 rpm.
As for the timing problem with the S1, I set the boost at 18 psi, and then leaned the car out to the 12.2 a/f and my timing problem stopped really (that was without w/i too). I just stoppped trying to run 21 psi all the time. 18 psi is still very good power when you get nice timing advance. It is when you fuck up your timing advance with more boost that is when you are screwing yourself. Now maybe with the w/i you would be able to have the best of both worlds.
That is just my personal experience while tuning my car. That is all i am saying.
Yeah but your car was pulling 3-9 degrees when you were clamped with S1. Then the KR went down when you put on the water meth. Now you are not retarding as much timing because S2 does not advance timing as much as S1. Trust me, I have done alot of reading into this. Have I ever steered you wrong before?
Actually, I have to disagree with you there. I am seeing about the same timing advance with S2 and the S1 injectors as I was seeing with the S1 PCM. 2 degrees retard when I go over 5500 rpm.
As for the timing problem with the S1, I set the boost at 18 psi, and then leaned the car out to the 12.2 a/f and my timing problem stopped really (that was without w/i too). I just stoppped trying to run 21 psi all the time. 18 psi is still very good power when you get nice timing advance. It is when you fuck up your timing advance with more boost that is when you are screwing yourself. Now maybe with the w/i you would be able to have the best of both worlds.
That is just my personal experience while tuning my car. That is all i am saying.
There can be many reasons you are pulling timing now. Lets looks at the diffrences in your car from then to now
A. You had a mapclamp, now you don't
B. You are running the wrong injectors for Stage 2 (yeah I know, FPR mod, But I was running way richer than you were with the S2 injectors)
Also, how did you get your timing problems fixed? In your thread in the Water/Meth thread, you said you were boosting to 16 and still pulling timing with the water meth?
It is also a known fact that S1 gives more of a timing advance than S2. Even you said that when you switched from S1 to S2.
Scott, I will try to get that G-tech to you on Friday. I wanted to do more runs with it but it would make sense to take it with you to the dyno. I just want to get my two data files off of it tonight. You guys should read this thread for timing INFO: Timing and the SRT-4 I spent over 2 hours reading through it. There is buckets of good info in there. It tells me a map clamp is pretty much bad, especially if you dont have W/I.
yup, read through that thread a long time ago. Got alot of good info from blackbird.
Jon, when I S1 and was pulling timing I had the 2nd O2 sensor out of the DP, I also had the tip sensor blacked from reading anything with a screw in the vac/boost hose and I was boosting over 18 psi.
As soon as I put the O2 sensor back in the DP, took the screw out and lowered boost to 18 psi I had practically no problems. My times at the track speak for themselves. Me personally I would rather run less boost and more tming than less timing and more boost.
With my current setup I am seeing about the same timing advance as S1 at the moment. Last time I checked I saw about 26 degree timing advance. If I can get a decent 3rd gear pull today on the way to work I will check and see what it is at.
I think when I was only boosting 16 psi I was getting alot of PTB that was making me too lean to. Now even with the AGP WGA and the S2 PCM I have almost perfect drivability. I almost don't want to change anything on the car because I may loose that. LOL
Scott, I will try to get that G-tech to you on Friday. I wanted to do more runs with it but it would make sense to take it with you to the dyno. I just want to get my two data files off of it tonight. You guys should read this thread for timing INFO: Timing and the SRT-4 I spent over 2 hours reading through it. There is buckets of good info in there. It tells me a map clamp is pretty much bad, especially if you dont have W/I.
Russ, yeah, I can pick that up from you tomorrow. I can test it out sunday and monday and compare the date from my time slips and the dyno runs to see what the difference is between the two.
yup, read through that thread a long time ago. Got alot of good info from blackbird.
Jon, when I S1 and was pulling timing I had the 2nd O2 sensor out of the DP, I also had the tip sensor blacked from reading anything with a screw in the vac/boost hose and I was boosting over 18 psi.
As soon as I put the O2 sensor back in the DP, took the screw out and lowered boost to 18 psi I had practically no problems. My times at the track speak for themselves. Me personally I would rather run less boost and more tming than less timing and more boost.
With my current setup I am seeing about the same timing advance as S1 at the moment. Last time I checked I saw about 26 degree timing advance. If I can get a decent 3rd gear pull today on the way to work I will check and see what it is at.
I think when I was only boosting 16 psi I was getting alot of PTB that was making me too lean to. Now even with the AGP WGA and the S2 PCM I have almost perfect drivability. I almost don't want to change anything on the car because I may loose that. LOL
Wait a tic, I am sure S1 does not read the Tip sensor or the 2nd O2 sensor? That is why in the S1 vac diagram, it says to block the Tip line. I do see where you are comming from by turning back the boost and having more timing BUT I dont know how you "fixed" your timing problems with methods that are not read by the S1 computer. I would say those changes in timing were due to weather more than anything.
I just put everything back to normal to eliminate that part as a issue. Overall the Stock 2nd O2 sensor helped the most with the timing being retarded. Pluse lowering the boost down to 18 helped the most.
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