advice wanted for HPDE day car (no rules) - long questions
I am looking for a z06 killer or keeper at bay. I live at/near a hp track, so the st3 under the hood is required. Anyway, I could buy a c5z06, but I want 4 doors, 4 seats. Just in case my daily breaks.
I am looking for the suspension guru's to chime in here. I see all the time that low hp cars with good drivers get held up with high power cars on the straight. So, the srt with a st3 underhood and a proper suspension could have the best of both, no?
I used to race a eblue st1, but it didn't go well. as I had a hodgepodge suspension.
i have no rules (HPDE days anyway), would like to keep a reasonable civility, as the car will be a sunday driver, driven to and from the track.
I put on 2000 miles of my 10000 miles last year at the track, and don't want to race the daily driver anymore. Camber/toe and pad/tire changes the night before a race day sucks. Its too much to do properly the night before. God forbid if anything goes wrong, etc.
I obviously want my cake and eat it. Is it possible?
Suitable responses of "I drive really fast in the mountains, and a z06 driver can't keep up" are not appropriate. No street racing stories. I am talking about track only. I have beaten 500hp vipers, GT3's etc, all driven by bad drivers. And could with a stock srt4. I am talking about a competent z06.
I have read the fastest times lap list, and quite frankly, some/most all aren't close to magazine z06 posted lap times. Now, I understand magazines sell, etc. What are track rats experience with their suspension and z06 lap times. If you lost by a very little bit, to me, is an accomplishment. FWD racing sucks, I never thought I would consider it again, but here I am.
I have the neon/fwd racing book by someone I can't remember, and would like people like 1lap to talk about their experiences ON THE TRACK only please.
Maybe once the thread is done, we could summarize different setups.
Things I hated/noticed from my last setup.
How do you get enough camber to make tires last?
Caster helps feel. How much are you guys getting? I had 6' before.
How long are front wheel bearings lasting?
What are you doing for lca bushings?
How do you help make the car feel less fwd, and get (maybe) some throttle lift oversteer? 50+psi inthe rears?
Anything else overlooked?
Budgets of small, medium and large should be addressed.
Small (not me, but others would like) $3k max.
Cheap coilovers
sways
LCA bushings
Medium (probably me) $5k or so
Better coils $2k? Koni/eiback or KW's
sways
Bushings all. LCA solid?
other suggestions
Large (racers) $8k or more
Motons, etc
custom fabricated stuff
very far removed from streetable, and really don't need "advice"
My opinion.....if your track is a hp track like Sebring then an SRT-4 with $5,000 in mods is in trouble given equal drivers. At Sebring the fast Z06's(T1 spec) run 2:18 to 2:22 seconds, for comparison the best World Challenge SRT-4 lap at Sebring is 2:22. Most SRT-4's that are street legal run 2:35 to 2:45 although there are a few exceptions, but those cars have a lot of development. With that said, I race two SRT-4's in Viper Days and love them. Both of my SRT-4's run Motons, stage 3, roll cage, gutted, etc.... so they are not really street driven. Which track are you running?
How do you get enough camber to make tires last? -> My solution was to modifiy shock towers, if you get camber plates and coilovers with slots you can probably get close to enough camber for Hoosier's.
Caster helps feel. How much are you guys getting? I had 6' before. -> I modified shock tower to gain more caster, more is better in my opinion
How long are front wheel bearings lasting? ->Replace every 600 to 800 track miles
What are you doing for lca bushings? ->Rage-tek solid or equivalent
How do you help make the car feel less fwd, and get (maybe) some throttle lift oversteer? 50+psi inthe rears? ->Stiff rear swaybar, remove front swaybar, add toe out in rear, stiffen rear spring rates
Does more than -2.5 really make a difference in the front? I have been experimenting between -2 & -2.5. All I really notice is how much sharper turn in is on -2.5. Tracktion with my V710's doesn't seem much different. Running -1.5 in rear & Toe neutral all the way around.
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11.9@117 so far.
Wiseman - Just cuz someone else has a fast car with the same parts as you, doesn't mean your car is fast.
Work harder, millions of people on welfare are depending on you.
Ok, HPDE no rules huh. How deep is your wallet? Not trying to be a wise ass but, you can go a long way with a good budget.
All the areas you mentioned have been or will be adressed here pretty soon, when I get home.
If you already have a car that you going to use, you should start by taking eveything off that you are not going to need on a track car. A lot of the items on this car, are pretty damm porkey.
You should really not worry about setting to much untill you really have a plan of attack on what exactly you are going to use on said car. One thing I will mention on this car is, you can only get so much caster unless you use camber-caster plates, or custom lower control arms, like mine. I run 6 deg +, with depending on the track, 1.5-3.0 neg camber in the front.
Look at a good cage tying it together. The rear of this car flexes pretty good stock so, good cage, stiffer chassis, better handling and feeling car, a lot safer.
one area that mose people seem to over look most of the times with this car is, the aero. Look into a splitter for the front, diffuser for the rear, and closing up the bottom of the car.(bellypan). Last but not least, figure out what you are going to do for wheels and tires. You going to keep the body stock, or are you planning of going wider, like 1 lap, and johnny, and myself, really soon. Of course this will open up a few more things you would have to do with the car.
When you decided what you are going to do with all these areas, decided what you are doing with power. If you concentrating on just HPDE, that means you just want the car for fun, meaning you can do whatever you wallet allows. So if and when you get the at good fondation, and if as good of a driver as you say you are, you will not need to have mongo power to get to your goals.
good luck.
Also as another example, our local road course is 3/4 mile long with a top speed of ~95mph. The track record is held by an 08 Dodge Viper ACR, completely stock, at 53.3 seconds. My best SRT-4 time is 57.2 seconds. I drove our 08 Viper to an easy 54.5 sec run stock. I can improve on both the Viper and SRT-4 times. I expect to reach a high 52 in the Viper and a mid 55 in the SRT-4 with further practice. A well driven Honda S2000 runs 60 seconds there, typical Z06 time is 57, fast Viper/Z06 time is 55. To build a 53 sec Neon for this track would be difficult and costly. From my data, the Neon is losing most of it's time under braking and acceleration out of tight corners.
I run -3 camber fornt and -2.5 rear with neutral rear toe and a hair toe out in front. Full cage would be first mod I would recommend and a Ksport RR race suspension, it wouldn't kill your pocket and would give you whatever spring rates you want with them and tons of dampening/rebound adjustability and they come with camber/caster adjustable front plates, in the rear I didn't need to install any to get -2.5 camber
Aero is definately a must, get an APR front splitter, front canards and a GTC-200 rear wing and a custom rear diffuser and an undertray, lower sideskirts to channel air under the car....
done
Oh and add in an AGP 50 trim with a built motor and there you go mr Z06 beater
Too bad your not close to me. I think Blazin & I have pretty good combo cars.
If I were to go track only with the srt, I probably wouldn't use the srt. Maybe Z4 M coupe, but that's just me.
Manny, when do you get back brotha?
Be back in late Nov bud. Going to start with the wide body project on mine, and will be taking my daughter to the track next season to get her feet wet.
Quote from ad:
new engine and turbo, 300hp+, many upgrades, (mopar stage 3, exhaust and muffler, intercooler, throttle body, sway bars, coilovers), $12k.
So, it is $10k less than a z06, has most upgrades (I think) I want.
Specifically:
St3 underhood.
Sways
Coilovers
Will the above be enough to be a z06 equal? How much more stuff would one need to get it to a z06 equal? For the record, I am just using that car as a frame of reference.
I should also be clear. I want a car that looks stock. No roll cages, no removed interior stuff. It will be my drive to work, drive to the track vehicle, but not my daily, I don't want a trailer. I just want 4 seats.
Mine is going to end up looking like something Chris Rado would drive. GT wings...yeah gay right?
I'd like to push the higher amounts of power (550-700) on the road course. I've been working side jobs for almost 5 years saving up the money to do some Time Attack.
I think we are going to try for the One Lap of America in 2011. I'm working on more seat time at current power levels.
Manny - I'll toss you a PM about the tubie front control Arms and your wide body plans, I'm working that route right now. Maybe we can share some ideas?
1Lap's Flairs and Monster tires got me thinking...
To beat a Z06 in the hands of a good driver, you will need a bit more then Stage3 IMHO.
Quote from ad:
new engine and turbo, 300hp+, many upgrades, (mopar stage 3, exhaust and muffler, intercooler, throttle body, sway bars, coilovers), $12k.
So, it is $10k less than a z06, has most upgrades (I think) I want.
Specifically:
St3 underhood.
Sways
Coilovers
Will the above be enough to be a z06 equal? How much more stuff would one need to get it to a z06 equal? For the record, I am just using that car as a frame of reference.
I should also be clear. I want a car that looks stock. No roll cages, no removed interior stuff. It will be my drive to work, drive to the track vehicle, but not my daily, I don't want a trailer. I just want 4 seats.
1Lap will chime in with some very good advice/experience. His car is as close to a true track worthy car that could still be driven daily (he uses it for One Lap of America). In no way is this endeavor going to be cheap though...alot of good suggestions have already been posted and I would pay attention to them.
Suspension...the sky is the limit. Motons...S3R Racing suspension components. A wide body kit for WIDE/STICKY tires... The BIGGEST set of brakes you can fit on the car.
Power...Mopar will be your most reliable source.
I will make a suggestion that others don't talk about too often.....Tein coilovers. They will literally build you what you want. I've been running the original model SS for 4+ years now without a single failure and they have performed flawlessly. I could only imagine a custom set of the newer model...
Brakes...Todd @ TCE Performance could also set you up with a custom 6 piston caliper setup and a rear upgrade kit.
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Gummybear One Lap Of Atlanta - 2008
Cannonball One Lap Of America - 2004/2005
SRT Nationals - 2004/2005/2006/2007/2008
Will the above be enough to be a z06 equal? How much more stuff would one need to get it to a z06 equal? For the record, I am just using that car as a frame of reference.
I should also be clear. I want a car that looks stock. No roll cages, no removed interior stuff. It will be my drive to work, drive to the track vehicle, but not my daily, I don't want a trailer. I just want 4 seats.
The car you are trying to build is expensive, to be a Z06 equal on a roadcourse the SRT-4 needs major handling improvements. The stage 3 car on race fuel will be close to a C5 Z06 in power level, but less than a C6 Z06. Problem is leaving the full interior in the car and not installing a roll cage. So now you have a car that flexes and is heavy. Your best hope is to throw Hoosier's on the SRT-4 and hope the Z06 is on stock Goodyear run flats. The C5 Z06 run flats are terrible. Obviously driver plays a huge role here, but an experienced Z06 driver will not be caught by the car you linked above. If the car must look stock then you need to add more tires (Hoosier's), brakes(Stoptech/Wilwood/Brembo), aero(splitter & wing), and power(heads,cam,turbo, etc...) to the car listed above. If the Z06 is on Hoosier's though you are going to have a problem, especially if he has the Z06 T1 suspension also. You might need to lower your target or raise your budget. The car pictured in my avatar is our 05 ACR stage 3 SRT-4, we use this car as our street toy. So it has full interior, no cage, etc... I added up what we paid for the car plus mods we have added and the total came to $32K. Also consider that I do all the labor so that is materials only. At Sebring the car is not capable of 2:20 (Z06 time) or even close, I would be surprised if it could break 2:33 to 2:35.
Also, I am not trying to talk you out of buying an SRT-4, my wife and I love ours. We currently own 3 running SRT-4's and 2 SRT-4 shells as backups for our race SRT-4's. Previously I have owned both a C5 Z06 and C6 Z06. If you want to beat a Z06 it will be cheaper to buy a used Z06 than to build an SRT-4. Personally, though I am a Mopar guy and for racing there are two options Viper or SRT-4. The SRT-4 better fit my racing budget.
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advice wanted for HPDE day car (no rules) - long questions
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