Fat in 3rd with some knk! - SRT Forums

stroudtom7 · 01-07-2009, 06:24 PM

Did this pull with a warm motor/trans. Called DSP tech line and asked some questions about the log. I was told the rich AF could be caused by PCM cooling the cat. I haven't heard any discussion on this and was thinking maybe I need some advice on when to datalog. There is a little knock as well and I was told oil puddling in the intake could cause this even if I have a catchcan. Don't know what to think of this. I running NKGs gapped at .40. Here is a link to my log if anyone would like to check it out offer advice....
http://www.whitehack.org/Predator%20Logs/stroudtom7.log

Thanks Tom

MY03, BWoody catchcan, PTP wastegate, stock motor

4TEHW · 01-07-2009, 06:53 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by stroudtom7

Did this pull with a warm motor/trans. Called DSP tech line and asked some questions about the log. I was told the rich AF could be caused by PCM cooling the cat. I haven't heard any discussion on this and was thinking maybe I need some advice on when to datalog. There is a little knock as well and I was told oil puddling in the intake could cause this even if I have a catchcan. Don't know what to think of this. I running NKGs gapped at .40. Here is a link to my log if anyone would like to check it out offer advice....
http://www.whitehack.org/Predator%20Logs/stroudtom7.log

Thanks Tom

Hey Tom...list your mods here, if you don't mind? You're definitely getting a ton of knock..I'm still looking through the log. I'll post up in a second.

4TEHW · 01-07-2009, 07:05 PM

First impressions:

At time index 0:00:04.684, you're at 3.804 THR POSN indicating WOT and your ACTUAL SPK CYL1 is at 36. That seems waaaay too high to me. However, you're not getting any knock and you seem to only be boosting 4.41psi while at 3230 RPMs. Are you running the stock turbo? That whole scenario seems odd.

By 4948 RPM, you're getting your first bit of KNK ST RETARD which is at 1. You're at 14.06psi and 27.50 spark. This climbs to 6 KNK ST RETARD by 5300 RPM at time index 0:00:06.388. You're only at 14.64psi by this point, so nothing abnormal there. 24 spark, which would be 30 without the knock...also normal as far as I know.

What are your A/Frs like at this point? At 14.6psi, you should have plenty of fuel...but you may be running lean from your tune. What tune are you using and have you made any modifications?

The next jumble of knock is probably a mix of fuel and possibly your ACT temps. It went from about 48 before your first pull, to 87 or so towards the end of the second pull. That's a fairly significant increase. You get as high as 91.59 at one point.

Aside from not being able to see fuel, and the drastic increase in ACT, everything else looks fairly normal. Knowing what tune you're using, any modifications you've made to it and your octane of fuel would be helpful. Also, anything you remember about your A/Frs while logging. The 'quick and dirty' way to get rid of that knock would simply be to lower your timing...but without knowing your A/Frs, that may be premature.

stroudtom7 · 01-08-2009, 06:42 AM

I'm running the DSP 93 oct tune unmodified and 93 octane fuel. I don't have a wideband installed if that's why you're asking about my A/Frs. Can the logged AFrs shown by the DSP be used for any guidence?

Is it possible that winter gas is junk?

4TEHW · 01-08-2009, 10:30 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by stroudtom7

I'm running the DSP 93 oct tune unmodified and 93 octane fuel. I don't have a wideband installed if that's why you're asking about my A/Frs. Can the logged AFrs shown by the DSP be used for any guidence?

Is it possible that winter gas is junk?

I'd definitely get a wideband before trying to tune your car.

stroudtom7 · 01-08-2009, 11:34 AM

I wasn't going to change fuel any without a wideband. Looks like pulling some timing wouldn't hurt. Is that a safe assumption without a wideband?

4TEHW · 01-08-2009, 11:46 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by stroudtom7

I wasn't going to change fuel any without a wideband. Looks like pulling some timing wouldn't hurt. Is that a safe assumption without a wideband?

Eh...yes and no. There's still a fine balance. If you pull too much timing, without enough fuel, you'll be in danger of raising your EGTs to unsafe levels (which can still cause knock). Having the full picture helps you determine WHAT is causing the knock, which in turn, helps you tune your car properly and/or address anything lacking in your setup.

In addition, the tune you're running is known to be rather lean. It'll easily put you up in the 12.0-12.3 A/Fr range, and regardless of what anyone says, I am personally NOT comfortable running that lean. I had to add a bit of fuel across the board to get into the 11's, where I'm more comfortable...and I knew where to add the fuel because of my wideband. It's like trying to tune with just your A/Frs and timing. Without knowing your boost, it'd be difficult to make appropriate adjustments. A/Frs, timing and boost aren't everything when it comes to tuning, but they're the foundation.

stroudtom7 · 01-08-2009, 03:53 PM

Do you think I should flash my Stg1 back into the car and see how that looks on the log?
I do have a Maxfabb SEE but was waiting on parts for a 3147 I have. That's why I bought the DSP was to learn a little and be able to make adjustments. I really didn't want to install the SEE till I went big turbo. Also was reading the possibilty of the DSP reading a wideband but that looks a little dim right now.

4TEHW · 01-08-2009, 05:07 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by stroudtom7

Do you think I should flash my Stg1 back into the car and see how that looks on the log?
I do have a Maxfabb SEE but was waiting on parts for a 3147 I have. That's why I bought the DSP was to learn a little and be able to make adjustments. I really didn't want to install the SEE till I went big turbo. Also was reading the possibilty of the DSP reading a wideband but that looks a little dim right now.

Even if you flashed the S1 back on, that's not really going to help you know better what your A/Frs look like. Do you have something against widebands? Or just a money thing right now? A local shop is selling new UEGOs for $185 or so for a couple more days as part of a promotion for the shop. I can get you in touch with them if you're interested. Otherwise, they tend to go for $250-300.

I'm not sure what the SEE has to do with tuning?

And as for the DSP reading a wideband...it'd actually have to be the PCM that read the wideband. duster360 was working on something for this, but I haven't heard any recent news. The Trinity has to 0-5v/analog inputs that you COULD use for a wideband probe, even one for EGTs. So unless someone figures out a way to tap the wideband into the PCM and log it with some misc PID, it ain't happening.

duster360 · 01-08-2009, 07:00 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by S2R0T044

duster360 was working on something for this, but I haven't heard any recent news.

Still working it out. Its slow going. Plan A was a dead-end,,still formulating a Plan B.

stroudtom7,

Get a wideband asap. Without an accurate A/F reading you're flying blind. You'll need a wideband when the 3147 goes on anyway. Soon the better, imo.

4TEHW · 01-08-2009, 07:07 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by duster360

Still working it out. Its slow going. Plan A was a dead-end,,still formulating a Plan B.

stroudtom7,

Get a wideband asap. Without an accurate A/F reading you're flying blind. You'll need a wideband when the 3147 goes on anyway. Soon the better, imo.

Glad to hear it.

stroudtom7 · 01-09-2009, 07:16 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by S2R0T044

Even if you flashed the S1 back on, that's not really going to help you know better what your A/Frs look like. Do you have something against widebands? Or just a money thing right now? A local shop is selling new UEGOs for $185 or so for a couple more days as part of a promotion for the shop. I can get you in touch with them if you're interested. Otherwise, they tend to go for $250-300.

I'm not sure what the SEE has to do with tuning?

And as for the DSP reading a wideband...it'd actually have to be the PCM that read the wideband. duster360 was working on something for this, but I haven't heard any recent news. The Trinity has to 0-5v/analog inputs that you COULD use for a wideband probe, even one for EGTs. So unless someone figures out a way to tap the wideband into the PCM and log it with some misc PID, it ain't happening.

I have nothing against the wideband, it's just a money thing right now. I'm a Chrysler employee and things don't look good right now.

The SEE has a bung for the wideband was the reason I mentioned it. Do you have a stock exhaust that you welded a bung in or what?

The reason I mentioned the S1 was if I do nothing to tune wouldn't that software be a safer setup to run.

4TEHW · 01-09-2009, 11:23 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by stroudtom7

I have nothing against the wideband, it's just a money thing right now. I'm a Chrysler employee and things don't look good right now.

The SEE has a bung for the wideband was the reason I mentioned it. Do you have a stock exhaust that you welded a bung in or what?

The reason I mentioned the S1 was if I do nothing to tune wouldn't that software be a safer setup to run.

Sorry to hear that. =/

I have a 3" Maxxfab TBE setup...so there was a bung in the downpipe already.

S1 would certainly be safer, depending on what boost levels you run. Since you're primarily stock, keep it around 16-17psi on the stock fuel system and you'd be fine. However, you won't have any benefits of tuning to add to your power. But in the meantime, while you work on getting a wideband, it'd be good.

stroudtom7 · 01-09-2009, 11:37 AM

Just for poots and giggles I loaded the S1 and did a log. Very simular results. Set the WGA at about 15psi and took it up to 100mph. Like to see?

4TEHW · 01-09-2009, 12:18 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by stroudtom7

Just for poots and giggles I loaded the S1 and did a log. Very simular results. Set the WGA at about 15psi and took it up to 100mph. Like to see?

Sure.

I was recently running S1 for almost a year. I know at 16-17psi I was fairly rich...and at around 18-18.5, my injectors weren't very happy. So at 15psi with S1, you should be fine on fuel...in fact, you'll be rich throughout the powerband.

01-07-2009, 06:24 PM	#1 (permalink)
stroudtom7 SRTforums Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Member Number: 56708 Location: huntsville,al Posts: 230	Fat in 3rd with some knk! Did this pull with a warm motor/trans. Called DSP tech line and asked some questions about the log. I was told the rich AF could be caused by PCM cooling the cat. I haven't heard any discussion on this and was thinking maybe I need some advice on when to datalog. There is a little knock as well and I was told oil puddling in the intake could cause this even if I have a catchcan. Don't know what to think of this. I running NKGs gapped at .40. Here is a link to my log if anyone would like to check it out offer advice.... http://www.whitehack.org/Predator%20Logs/stroudtom7.log Thanks Tom MY03, BWoody catchcan, PTP wastegate, stock motor Last edited by stroudtom7; 01-08-2009 at 06:34 AM.

01-07-2009, 06:53 PM	#2 (permalink)
4TEHW Forum Moderator Join Date: Nov 2003 Member Number: 5620 Location: NorCal (E. Bay) Posts: 6,002	Quote: Originally Posted by stroudtom7 Did this pull with a warm motor/trans. Called DSP tech line and asked some questions about the log. I was told the rich AF could be caused by PCM cooling the cat. I haven't heard any discussion on this and was thinking maybe I need some advice on when to datalog. There is a little knock as well and I was told oil puddling in the intake could cause this even if I have a catchcan. Don't know what to think of this. I running NKGs gapped at .40. Here is a link to my log if anyone would like to check it out offer advice.... http://www.whitehack.org/Predator%20Logs/stroudtom7.log Thanks Tom Hey Tom...list your mods here, if you don't mind? You're definitely getting a ton of knock..I'm still looking through the log. I'll post up in a second. __________________ Josh - 2005 Black SRT-4 blazinsrt built. Brand new JMB UPP for sale DiabloSport U7134 Predator F.A.Q.

01-07-2009, 07:05 PM	#3 (permalink)
4TEHW Forum Moderator Join Date: Nov 2003 Member Number: 5620 Location: NorCal (E. Bay) Posts: 6,002	First impressions: At time index 0:00:04.684, you're at 3.804 THR POSN indicating WOT and your ACTUAL SPK CYL1 is at 36. That seems waaaay too high to me. However, you're not getting any knock and you seem to only be boosting 4.41psi while at 3230 RPMs. Are you running the stock turbo? That whole scenario seems odd. By 4948 RPM, you're getting your first bit of KNK ST RETARD which is at 1. You're at 14.06psi and 27.50 spark. This climbs to 6 KNK ST RETARD by 5300 RPM at time index 0:00:06.388. You're only at 14.64psi by this point, so nothing abnormal there. 24 spark, which would be 30 without the knock...also normal as far as I know. What are your A/Frs like at this point? At 14.6psi, you should have plenty of fuel...but you may be running lean from your tune. What tune are you using and have you made any modifications? The next jumble of knock is probably a mix of fuel and possibly your ACT temps. It went from about 48 before your first pull, to 87 or so towards the end of the second pull. That's a fairly significant increase. You get as high as 91.59 at one point. Aside from not being able to see fuel, and the drastic increase in ACT, everything else looks fairly normal. Knowing what tune you're using, any modifications you've made to it and your octane of fuel would be helpful. Also, anything you remember about your A/Frs while logging. The 'quick and dirty' way to get rid of that knock would simply be to lower your timing...but without knowing your A/Frs, that may be premature. __________________ Josh - 2005 Black SRT-4 blazinsrt built. Brand new JMB UPP for sale DiabloSport U7134 Predator F.A.Q.

01-08-2009, 10:30 AM	#5 (permalink)
4TEHW Forum Moderator Join Date: Nov 2003 Member Number: 5620 Location: NorCal (E. Bay) Posts: 6,002	Quote: Originally Posted by stroudtom7 I'm running the DSP 93 oct tune unmodified and 93 octane fuel. I don't have a wideband installed if that's why you're asking about my A/Frs. Can the logged AFrs shown by the DSP be used for any guidence? Is it possible that winter gas is junk? I'd definitely get a wideband before trying to tune your car. __________________ Josh - 2005 Black SRT-4 blazinsrt built. Brand new JMB UPP for sale DiabloSport U7134 Predator F.A.Q.

01-08-2009, 11:46 AM	#7 (permalink)
4TEHW Forum Moderator Join Date: Nov 2003 Member Number: 5620 Location: NorCal (E. Bay) Posts: 6,002	Quote: Originally Posted by stroudtom7 I wasn't going to change fuel any without a wideband. Looks like pulling some timing wouldn't hurt. Is that a safe assumption without a wideband? Eh...yes and no. There's still a fine balance. If you pull too much timing, without enough fuel, you'll be in danger of raising your EGTs to unsafe levels (which can still cause knock). Having the full picture helps you determine WHAT is causing the knock, which in turn, helps you tune your car properly and/or address anything lacking in your setup. In addition, the tune you're running is known to be rather lean. It'll easily put you up in the 12.0-12.3 A/Fr range, and regardless of what anyone says, I am personally NOT comfortable running that lean. I had to add a bit of fuel across the board to get into the 11's, where I'm more comfortable...and I knew where to add the fuel because of my wideband. It's like trying to tune with just your A/Frs and timing. Without knowing your boost, it'd be difficult to make appropriate adjustments. A/Frs, timing and boost aren't everything when it comes to tuning, but they're the foundation. __________________ Josh - 2005 Black SRT-4 blazinsrt built. Brand new JMB UPP for sale DiabloSport U7134 Predator F.A.Q. Last edited by 4TEHW; 01-08-2009 at 11:49 AM.

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01-08-2009, 06:42 AM	#4 (permalink)
stroudtom7 SRTforums Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Member Number: 56708 Location: huntsville,al Posts: 230	I'm running the DSP 93 oct tune unmodified and 93 octane fuel. I don't have a wideband installed if that's why you're asking about my A/Frs. Can the logged AFrs shown by the DSP be used for any guidence? Is it possible that winter gas is junk?

01-08-2009, 11:34 AM	#6 (permalink)
stroudtom7 SRTforums Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Member Number: 56708 Location: huntsville,al Posts: 230	I wasn't going to change fuel any without a wideband. Looks like pulling some timing wouldn't hurt. Is that a safe assumption without a wideband?

01-08-2009, 03:53 PM	#8 (permalink)
stroudtom7 SRTforums Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Member Number: 56708 Location: huntsville,al Posts: 230	Do you think I should flash my Stg1 back into the car and see how that looks on the log? I do have a Maxfabb SEE but was waiting on parts for a 3147 I have. That's why I bought the DSP was to learn a little and be able to make adjustments. I really didn't want to install the SEE till I went big turbo. Also was reading the possibilty of the DSP reading a wideband but that looks a little dim right now.

01-08-2009, 05:07 PM	#9 (permalink)
4TEHW Forum Moderator Join Date: Nov 2003 Member Number: 5620 Location: NorCal (E. Bay) Posts: 6,002	Quote: Originally Posted by stroudtom7 Do you think I should flash my Stg1 back into the car and see how that looks on the log? I do have a Maxfabb SEE but was waiting on parts for a 3147 I have. That's why I bought the DSP was to learn a little and be able to make adjustments. I really didn't want to install the SEE till I went big turbo. Also was reading the possibilty of the DSP reading a wideband but that looks a little dim right now. Even if you flashed the S1 back on, that's not really going to help you know better what your A/Frs look like. Do you have something against widebands? Or just a money thing right now? A local shop is selling new UEGOs for $185 or so for a couple more days as part of a promotion for the shop. I can get you in touch with them if you're interested. Otherwise, they tend to go for $250-300. I'm not sure what the SEE has to do with tuning? And as for the DSP reading a wideband...it'd actually have to be the PCM that read the wideband. duster360 was working on something for this, but I haven't heard any recent news. The Trinity has to 0-5v/analog inputs that you COULD use for a wideband probe, even one for EGTs. So unless someone figures out a way to tap the wideband into the PCM and log it with some misc PID, it ain't happening. __________________ Josh - 2005 Black SRT-4 blazinsrt built. Brand new JMB UPP for sale DiabloSport U7134 Predator F.A.Q.

01-08-2009, 07:00 PM	#10 (permalink)
duster360 Supporting Vendor (Gold) Join Date: Aug 2006 Member Number: 45182 Location: Central IL Posts: 5,739	Quote: Originally Posted by S2R0T044 duster360 was working on something for this, but I haven't heard any recent news. Still working it out. Its slow going. Plan A was a dead-end,,still formulating a Plan B. stroudtom7, Get a wideband asap. Without an accurate A/F reading you're flying blind. You'll need a wideband when the 3147 goes on anyway. Soon the better, imo. __________________ "Just because someone goes fast doesn't mean you should do whatever you think they did. This path assumes they knew what they were doing, which isn't necessarily the case"..........RB Racing Duster360 tunes through TDS,,pm turbo666 for details. FREE TUNE checking!!. Last edited by duster360; 01-08-2009 at 07:05 PM.

01-08-2009, 07:07 PM	#11 (permalink)
4TEHW Forum Moderator Join Date: Nov 2003 Member Number: 5620 Location: NorCal (E. Bay) Posts: 6,002	Quote: Originally Posted by duster360 Still working it out. Its slow going. Plan A was a dead-end,,still formulating a Plan B. stroudtom7, Get a wideband asap. Without an accurate A/F reading you're flying blind. You'll need a wideband when the 3147 goes on anyway. Soon the better, imo. Glad to hear it. __________________ Josh - 2005 Black SRT-4 blazinsrt built. Brand new JMB UPP for sale DiabloSport U7134 Predator F.A.Q.

01-09-2009, 07:16 AM	#12 (permalink)
stroudtom7 SRTforums Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Member Number: 56708 Location: huntsville,al Posts: 230	Quote: Originally Posted by S2R0T044 Even if you flashed the S1 back on, that's not really going to help you know better what your A/Frs look like. Do you have something against widebands? Or just a money thing right now? A local shop is selling new UEGOs for $185 or so for a couple more days as part of a promotion for the shop. I can get you in touch with them if you're interested. Otherwise, they tend to go for $250-300. I'm not sure what the SEE has to do with tuning? And as for the DSP reading a wideband...it'd actually have to be the PCM that read the wideband. duster360 was working on something for this, but I haven't heard any recent news. The Trinity has to 0-5v/analog inputs that you COULD use for a wideband probe, even one for EGTs. So unless someone figures out a way to tap the wideband into the PCM and log it with some misc PID, it ain't happening. I have nothing against the wideband, it's just a money thing right now. I'm a Chrysler employee and things don't look good right now. The SEE has a bung for the wideband was the reason I mentioned it. Do you have a stock exhaust that you welded a bung in or what? The reason I mentioned the S1 was if I do nothing to tune wouldn't that software be a safer setup to run.

01-09-2009, 11:23 AM	#13 (permalink)
4TEHW Forum Moderator Join Date: Nov 2003 Member Number: 5620 Location: NorCal (E. Bay) Posts: 6,002	Quote: Originally Posted by stroudtom7 I have nothing against the wideband, it's just a money thing right now. I'm a Chrysler employee and things don't look good right now. The SEE has a bung for the wideband was the reason I mentioned it. Do you have a stock exhaust that you welded a bung in or what? The reason I mentioned the S1 was if I do nothing to tune wouldn't that software be a safer setup to run. Sorry to hear that. =/ I have a 3" Maxxfab TBE setup...so there was a bung in the downpipe already. S1 would certainly be safer, depending on what boost levels you run. Since you're primarily stock, keep it around 16-17psi on the stock fuel system and you'd be fine. However, you won't have any benefits of tuning to add to your power. But in the meantime, while you work on getting a wideband, it'd be good. __________________ Josh - 2005 Black SRT-4 blazinsrt built. Brand new JMB UPP for sale DiabloSport U7134 Predator F.A.Q.

01-09-2009, 11:37 AM	#14 (permalink)
stroudtom7 SRTforums Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Member Number: 56708 Location: huntsville,al Posts: 230	Just for poots and giggles I loaded the S1 and did a log. Very simular results. Set the WGA at about 15psi and took it up to 100mph. Like to see?

01-09-2009, 12:18 PM	#15 (permalink)
4TEHW Forum Moderator Join Date: Nov 2003 Member Number: 5620 Location: NorCal (E. Bay) Posts: 6,002	Quote: Originally Posted by stroudtom7 Just for poots and giggles I loaded the S1 and did a log. Very simular results. Set the WGA at about 15psi and took it up to 100mph. Like to see? Sure. I was recently running S1 for almost a year. I know at 16-17psi I was fairly rich...and at around 18-18.5, my injectors weren't very happy. So at 15psi with S1, you should be fine on fuel...in fact, you'll be rich throughout the powerband. __________________ Josh - 2005 Black SRT-4 blazinsrt built. Brand new JMB UPP for sale DiabloSport U7134 Predator F.A.Q.

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