Ok, My question is a little more specific. Basically I have a theory and want to know if it will work or not.
I have a Stage 3 w/ Toys setup and recently switched from the Mopar to the AGP WGA (still PCM controlled). I love the faster spool and higher boost but there's more PTB. Also, to spike/hold 26/24 I get 18 on DAB0 and if I set it up to 15 on DAB0 I only get 20-21 on DAB3.
Now from what I know, WGA opens when it get boost matching it's spring rate. To get more boost the PCM bleeds boost to hide it from the WGA and to get less boost (limit PTB) the PCM let's all the boost reach the WGA. Problem here is that even if the PCM tries to limit boost by not bleeding any, I still get 18psi from the spring.
Question: Could I set up the WGA arm for the lowest possible 'spring' boost and then use the DSP to make the PCM bleed more boost when going WOT or on higher DAB? Result: 12-15psi DAB0, less PTB and still get 26psi on DAB 3.
Ok, My question is a little more specific. Basically I have a theory and want to know if it will work or not.
I have a Stage 3 w/ Toys setup and recently switched from the Mopar to the AGP WGA (still PCM controlled). I love the faster spool and higher boost but there's more PTB. Also, to spike/hold 26/24 I get 18 on DAB0 and if I set it up to 15 on DAB0 I only get 20-21 on DAB3.
Now from what I know, WGA opens when it get boost matching it's spring rate. To get more boost the PCM bleeds boost to hide it from the WGA and to get less boost (limit PTB) the PCM let's all the boost reach the WGA. Problem here is that even if the PCM tries to limit boost by not bleeding any, I still get 18psi from the spring.
Question: Could I set up the WGA arm for the lowest possible 'spring' boost and then use the DSP to make the PCM bleed more boost when going WOT or on higher DAB? Result: 12-15psi DAB0, less PTB and still get 26psi on DAB 3.
Can it do this?
Yes this can be done, but you will need a custom tune. See email below to send tune request for your application.
So there are features that can't be used by average joe with the hand held and can only be modified via custom tune?
For the most part, yes.
You either need to get the Wg duty cycle table to match the spring pressure of the AGP or get the S3 wga to spool faster. Either can be done but not very well with the hand held if at all.
Obviously you can't change the WG DC table to help out your APG. Even though the S3 wga will work best with the DSP 93tune, you may not be able to get it to spool as fast as you'd like.
Have you fully explored adjusting boost with the S3 wga and the DSP 93 tune? It may get you close to what you want.
From a CMR point of view, getting the S3 wga to spool faster is pretty simple. It really just needs some of the lower TPS rows of the Desired Torque tables raised.
With PCM control there's little if any advantage to using the AGP
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Last edited by duster360 : 10-26-2009 at 08:37 PM.
You either need to get the Wg duty cycle table to match the spring pressure of the AGP or get the S3 wga to spool faster. Either can be done but not very well with the hand held if at all.
Obviously you can't change the WG DC table to help out your APG. Even though the S3 wga will work best with the DSP 93tune, you may not be able to get it to spool as fast as you'd like.
Have you fully explored adjusting boost with the S3 wga and the DSP 93 tune? It may get you close to what you want.
From a CMR point of view, getting the S3 wga to spool faster is pretty simple. It really just needs some of the lower TPS rows of the Desired Torque tables raised.
With PCM control there's little if any advantage to using the AGP
Thing is, I don't have a DSP yet. I'm checking to see if it can do what I want 1st.
P.S. Wouldn't the AGP hold more to redline because of the stronger spring?
Thing is, I don't have a DSP yet. I'm checking to see if it can do what I want 1st.
P.S. Wouldn't the AGP hold more to redline because of the stronger spring?
If there's 0psi boost pressure on the wga, it'll take quite a bit of manifold pressure to force the wg flapper open. The S3 should have considerably less manifold pressure than the stock turbo so I'd say the S3 wga will work fine.
I've done this test on a stock turbo:
1) Install the S3 wga but DON'T connect the boost line.(various bleeds of increasing diameter can be used to step up to the max hold boost psi. A mbc can also be used to effectively do the same thing.)
2) In 3rd gear, Carefully but not to slowly, bring the RPMs up to ~5500 and Smash the GAS. NOTE: Too low RPM will over boost.
The resulting boost pressure is the max that wga will hold.
I'm fairly confident the S3 wga will exceed 25psi past 5500rpm.
Note: the stock S3 PCM has the S3 wg Duty cycle in the high 60%- mid 70% past 5600rpm (100% = 0psi to the wga)
FWIW:On my stock wga/turbo test at about 14-15psi at 6000rpm. Oddly enough, I can't get my AGP to hold much more than that,,,
Last edited by duster360 : 10-27-2009 at 07:50 AM.
If there's 0psi boost pressure on the wga, it'll take quite a bit of manifold pressure to force the wg flapper open. The S3 should have considerably less manifold pressure than the stock turbo so I'd say the S3 wga will work fine.
I've done this test on a stock turbo:
1) Install the S3 wga but DON'T connect the boost line.(various bleeds of increasing diameter can be used to step up to the max hold boost psi. A mbc can also be used to effectively do the same thing.)
2) In 3rd gear, Carefully but not to slowly, bring the RPMs up to ~5500 and Smash the GAS. NOTE: Too low RPM will over boost.
The resulting boost pressure is the max that wga will hold.
I'm fairly confident the S3 wga will exceed 25psi past 5500rpm.
Note: the stock S3 PCM has the S3 wg Duty cycle in the high 60%- mid 70% past 5600rpm (100% = 0psi to the wga)
FWIW:On my stock wga/turbo test at about 14-15psi at 6000rpm. Oddly enough, I can't get my AGP to hold much more than that,,,
Very interesting. By "100% = 0psi to the wga" you mean no boost reaches the WGA, like if the vac line was disconnected, right?
Also, I believe the stock WGA spring is 4lbs. What about the Mopar S3? 8lbs?
P.S. This is what AGP has to say about your results at redline on stock turbo:
Quote:
Why can't my WGA hold 19psi to redline?
Dodge made a turbo that is too small for the engine. You simply cannot get enough air through the turbine to generate "more boost". Even if you welded the wastegate door shut, you will still only get 15-16psi at redline.
Quote:
Why can't my WGA hold 19psi to redline?
Dodge made a turbo that is too small for the engine. You simply cannot get enough air through the turbine to generate "more boost". Even if you welded the wastegate door shut, you will still only get 15-16psi at redline.
I have been doing alot of reading about this latley and there alot of people on here that are holding atleast 20psi till redline with external gates and supporting fuel mods so it think the turbo is good for it you just need some way to hold it and make sure there is enough fuel to cover the boost. Go on realtune and read there highboost kit thread and in the general section there are some good posts about holding more boost.
I have been doing alot of reading about this latley and there alot of people on here that are holding atleast 20psi till redline with external gates and supporting fuel mods so it think the turbo is good for it you just need some way to hold it and make sure there is enough fuel to cover the boost. Go on realtune and read there highboost kit thread and in the general section there are some good posts about holding more boost.
Thats a whole separate off-topic discussion. imo if they have a stock turbo they're full of shit.
I've never test the crack pressure on a S3 wga. Why don't you test it and let us know? be sure to have it installed so any "preload" is applied.
I just tried it with the AGP S3 WGA (it's the one I have installed now). DAB0 with the least amount of preload, juste before the waste gate starts flopping around gave me 15psi.
I was getting 8psi on DAB0 with the S3 WGA but it did have some preload on it.
In theory, if we were to try the AGP and Mopar WGA back to back with no vac lines we should get similar results right? Both springs should be strong enough to keep the waste gate shut to redline on their own?
You either need to get the Wg duty cycle table to match the spring pressure of the AGP or get the S3 wga to spool faster. Either can be done but not very well with the hand held if at all.
Obviously you can't change the WG DC table to help out your APG. Even though the S3 wga will work best with the DSP 93tune, you may not be able to get it to spool as fast as you'd like.
Have you fully explored adjusting boost with the S3 wga and the DSP 93 tune? It may get you close to what you want.
From a CMR point of view, getting the S3 wga to spool faster is pretty simple. It really just needs some of the lower TPS rows of the Desired Torque tables raised.
With PCM control there's little if any advantage to using the AGP
Duster, that would work but its better to tune the WGA off the duty cycle table than messing with the desired TQ down low.
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Can the DSP control boost?
Linear Mode
