MN-Venting about Cops on Uni...LONG!

[Shrep]

After St. Paul’s finest kicked us out of the Wendy’s lot last weekend, at 10:30. I decided to do a little research…

You see, when I began to ask one of the Officers what specifically we were being ousted for, and he gave me no answer, but instead threatened to “tag and tow my car” if I didn’t leave within the next “five seconds”.

Before I get into what I’ve found…I want to explain why I’m taking the time to post this. With some exceptions…what we all do in the parking lots of Wendy’s, Porkey’s and the like is with no ill intentions and perfectly legal. Why then, does the City of St Paul feel it necessary to put us all out of the lots?

I’ve been researching laws for some time now…usually to get out of tickets that I don’t deserve…and have learned a lot about the differences between what you can get in trouble for, and what the Cops want you to THINK you can get in trouble for.

Okay…the first thing I wanted to find out is what is grounds for a “tag and tow” or “impound”. MN Statute 169.041 Was put together authorizing private towing companies to tow vehicles for the Police, under certain conditions but has to do with traffic regulation, though that fit’s a “tag and tow” situation, given the “tag” is the citation for the traffic offense, and the tow must happen after four hours have passed. Since we’re not on a roadway, I looked further. St. Paul Legislative Code, Chapter XXVII Section 279 Deals with “Impoundment and Forfeiture of Motor Vehicles Associated with Certain Designated Offenses”. So I went on reading…272.01 Defines Designated offense as: “…a conviction of a violation of any provision in sections 272.01, 272.03 or [url=http://www.stpaul.gov/code/lc272.html#sec280.03.]280.03[url] of this Legislative Code or in Minnesota Statutes, Section 609.324, subdivision 3.” Well, Chapter 272 deals with Solicitation to Vice, and does not cover anything we did…Chapter 280.03 deals with nudity, indecency and obscenity…again…not the problem…So, on to MN 609.324. Nope…this statute deals entirely with prostitution also. So…it can’t be impounded and a tag and tow doesn’t fit either.

So what were we doing wrong??? Let’s take a look at a few possibilities...Trespassing? Well, I suppose that’s possible…let’s see if St. Paul has an ordinance against that…yup. Sure do. 280.05 Trespassing: “No person shall trespass on the private premises of others in the City of Saint Paul.” Well…that’s kind of vague…and there’s no “definition” of trespass listed. That means that it falls to the State definition…ahhh here it is: MN Statute 605.605 Subdivision 3. Subdivision three is the only part that could pertain…but it says: “trespasses on the premises of another and, without
claim of right, refuses to depart from the premises on demand of
the lawful possessor” Hmmm…didn’t really define trespass, however the statute is quite clear that you are not trespassing unless you refuse to leave if the establishment/property owner has asked you to leave. Now…”NO TRESPASSING” and “NO LOITERING” signs would count for that. Speaking of Loitering…St Paul defines Loitering quite clearly: St. Paul Legislative Code, Chapter XXVIII, Section 280.06 makes loitering a misdemeanor saying: “No person shall loiter about the streets after midnight and lie in wait or concealment in said City of Saint Paul, or consort with thieves, prostitutes or other questionable characters.”

Granted…some of the people out on the weekends could be considered “questionable”

What about unlawful assembly? I have heard a lot of rumors of threats regarding “Unlawful Assembly”…maybe that’s their angle? MN Statute 609.705 says: “When three or more persons assemble, each participant is
guilty of unlawful assembly, which is a misdemeanor, if the
assembly is:

(1) With intent to commit any unlawful act by force; or

(2) With intent to carry out any purpose in such manner as
will disturb or threaten the public peace; or

(3) Without unlawful purpose, but the participants so
conduct themselves in a disorderly manner as to disturb or
threaten the public peace.“

Even threatening tickets for watching a street race is on quite thin ice here. But, considering the fact that it’s not threatening to the public peace for us to hang out and talk and look at each other’s cars…hanging out in a parking lot…seems perfectly legal.

So…my point is…if the establishment is open…and it’s a peaceful gathering…assuming that Wendy’s didn’t call and to have us kicked out (safe assumption, considering the fact that they didn’t tell us to leave themselves)…where is the law that makes our gathering illegal? Where is the statute giving the Police the power to harass us as if we were all a bunch of criminals?

Any local cops on this board that would like to take a stab at this? The fact of the matter is, we aren’t doing anything wrong. Not to mention the fact that it’s PRIVATE PROPERTY and the cops have no say who is there and who isn’t unless they’ve been asked to be involved.

I’m tired of bully Cops pushing people around because it’s fun! Seriously…if you have any information on this, or can find a statute or ordinance that makes what we do illegal…please post it. I want to find out where we stand here…

[easy2cy]

you don't know, and I guess nobody will know whether the cops were called or not. BUT, I do know that you cant "hang out" in a parking lot for which you are not a customer to. You cannot just designate a spot to meet up at. I dont know the laws where you are at, but it's considered loitering. Now I know you probably had no ill intentions, but the cops dont know that and they'd rather just have you leave then POSSIBLY cause problems. I guess if I saw a couple of street rods/street racers/hot rods/ whatever you wanna call us, hanging out in a parking lot my guess would be is to meet before/after a street race. I feel bad you got threatened like that and he couldnt even vaguely give you a reason for why he did it. Cops deal with fast cars all the time being around each other because 99% of the time, those cars are breaking some type of traffic law when they are around each other.

Like I said, I feel bad for what happened and I think the cop could have questioned you a little more and also you could've said more of the story because it sounds like that's the case, but whatever. You didnt get a ticket I presume so take it for what it is worth and move on. I'll be more than happy to discuss this further. Just keep it reasonable and dont get offensive or tempermental.


shit happens...

[toasteroven]

Hence, why when we meet, I buy a box of a dozen donuts from said establishment. They don't have the be eaten right then and there - but we are "paying customers", and (I think) entitled to park on their property.

You could go down to a park, but then you'd probably have to deal with the whole "after hours" thing.

Or you could do what we did in Calgary - hang around my buddy's shop's parking lot. Kinda hard for the cops to harass you about trespassing or loitering when the property owner is leaning on the hood of his Denali.

Also, make sure you check the local laws concerning vehicular jurisdiction - in BC for example, if it's private property and we have permission to be there, we can race / smoke our tires / whatever until we're blue in the face - and the police cannot write us up for any MVA violations, or anything else.

You could also try the tactic of speaking to a ranking officer - explain that you have informal meets, that they're not for racing, and see what they say. If they know what's going on, they'll likely leave you alone.

If none of this works for you, I guess the cops would rather chase people down dark streets and alleys instead of see everyone standing around their parked cars in a well lit, public area.

God forbid we do their job for them.

[GLHDONTFLY]

Sucks man, its like everything else. Most cops are out doing their duty in a manner that makes me respect and appreciate what they do for the general public but a few ass bags strap their nuts on their hip and go out and power trip. Time to find a new place to hang out.

[PoorMansNeon]

Plain and simple the cops see other people having fun while they are working and they can't have that, but I would refer to what was said above and while on the property where you are handing out just buy something then tell the cop to go blow himself. Unless you are disturbing the peace you have the right to be there, and they do have to tell you why they are asking you to leave.

-TSXT

[dakotart1]

My suggestion would be to ask the Manager if he would mind if you could hang out in his parking lot. Explain to him that you would not be in a part of the lot that would cause any inconvenience or harassment to their customers. It might be wise for some in your group to make a purchase, like a coke or some food, and eat it in the parking lot and properly disposing of your trash giving the impression that you were just enjoying your purchase with some friends. I don't know of any place of business that would want to turn away any money and it is not like you are doing it during lunch time when they have a lot of business and need the parking.
Unless it is posted "No Loitering" or "No Trespass" or complaints from the establishment there would be no legal reason for the cops to harass you. I have known some business owners that have talked to law enforcement officials and given them the right to run off loiters without tell their Managers. The Cops need to inform you of this when he tells you to leave.