SCT and E85

[NoisufnoC]

h'Okay. I'm surprised no one has brought this up...

This is what we know about E85:

• Less expensive per gallon than 87 octane gasoline
• Contains 85% Ethanol Alcohol
• Octane equivalent of approximately 105
• Requires 30% - 40% more than gasoline
• Stoichiometric is approximately 9:1
• Has been used successfully in the DSM and EVO worlds

Unknowns:

• Does the SRT-4 PCM hunt for 1 Lambda in closed loop?
• Will the Ethanol content be too corrosive for the stock fuel system

All this taken into account, could someone write a SCT map that would provide enough fuel to use E85? This would probably require rather large injectors, but much more aggressive timing could be used, and more boost could be run.

Did I just open up an enormous can of worms?

[[vu]juan]

Quote: Originally Posted by NoisufnoC

Did I just open up an enormous can of worms?

Yes, but I would certainly like to see where it goes...

[NoisufnoC]

In my opinion the first hurdle to cross is the idle/closed loop. If the car hunts for 1 lambda (which is stoich for any fuel) then I would think the tuner could increase fuel delivery in closed loop until the fuel trims are at an acceptable level on E85

[NoisufnoC]

I think that the PCM does look for 1 lambda, because all the threads people have started about dumping E85 in a stock car have mentioned that they got a code for a lean condition.

So lets do some math...shall we?

Lambda (λ) is the measure of how far from stoichiometry that mixture is. Lambda of 1.0 is at stoichiometry, rich mixtures are less than 1.0, and lean mixtures are greater than 1.0.

to determine lambda from AFR you use the following equation:


If E85 stoch is 9:1 and gasoline is 14.7:1, and the stock fuel system is attempting to deliver 14.7:1 worth of fuel in closed loop you'd get this...

14.7 / 9 = 1.633333333

An extremely lean condition

[boostedneonsrt4]

you would have to change out all of the fuel system seals and o rings and more than likely the hoses due to the fact normal fuel systems cant handle the extra corrosive nature of e85. i am pretty sure that the sct flash could be used to make e85 work for the srt-4 but it would involve a complete overhaul of the fuel system. i would be interested in this if we actually had e85 widely available in florida.

[NoisufnoC]

Quote: Originally Posted by boostedneonsrt4

you would have to change out all of the fuel system seals and o rings and more than likely the hoses due to the fact normal fuel systems cant handle the extra corrosive nature of e85. i am pretty sure that the sct flash could be used to make e85 work for the srt-4 but it would involve a complete overhaul of the fuel system. i would be interested in this if we actually had e85 widely available in florida.

I dont know if that's necessarily true. The EVO owners never mention the need to completely re-do their fuel system, and i refuse to believe that they have anything different than ours.

Also, post-1995 cars are manufactured to handle a small amount of ethanol since regular gasoline can contain as much as 10%

[boostedneonsrt4]

Quote: Originally Posted by NoisufnoC

I dont know if that's necessarily true. The EVO owners never mention the need to completely re-do their fuel system, and i refuse to believe that they have anything different than ours.

Also, post-1995 cars are manufactured to handle a small amount of ethanol since regular gasoline can contain as much as 10%

thats the key, a small amount 10% is alot less than 85%. yes you could run e85 in the evos and dsms and the srt-4 with no modification.......but for how long? corrosion is a bitch and its a slow process. so yes the evo owners may not mention that they changed anything, but go talk to them after a couple of months, even as long as a year later and lets see what they have to say. there is a reason why they sell e85 compatable cars, if all cars could handle it we wouldnt be paying 4.00 a gallon right now.

[NoisufnoC]

Quote: Originally Posted by boostedneonsrt4

thats the key, a small amount 10% is alot less than 85%. yes you could run e85 in the evos and dsms and the srt-4 with no modification.......but for how long? corrosion is a bitch and its a slow process. so yes the evo owners may not mention that they changed anything, but go talk to them after a couple of months, even as long as a year later and lets see what they have to say. there is a reason why they sell e85 compatable cars, if all cars could handle it we wouldnt be paying 4.00 a gallon right now.

i dont understand that statement

[boostedneonsrt4]

ford, gm and chrysler all have flex fuel versions of some cars and trucks. they can run on e85 or regular gas.....they have special fuel components that allow this. what i was trying to say was if every car could run e85 then every car sold would be able a flex fuel vehicle and thats not the case. check this out, this might help you out......
"E-85 ethanol is used in engines modified to accept higher concentrations of ethanol. Such flexible-fuel vehicles (FFV) are designed to run on any mixture of gasoline or ethanol with up to 85% ethanol by volume. There are a few major differences between FFVs and non-FFVs. One is the elimination of bare magnesium, aluminum, and rubber parts in the fuel system. Another is that fuel pumps must be capable of operating with electrically conductive ethanol instead of non-conducting dielectric gasoline fuel are used. Fuel injection control systems have a wider range of pulse widths to inject approximately 40% more fuel. Stainless steel fuel lines, sometimes lined with plastic, and stainless steel fuel tanks in place of terne fuel tanks are used. In some cases, FFVs use acid-neutralizing motor oil. For vehicles with fuel-tank mounted fuel pumps, additional differences to prevent arcing, as well as flame arrestors positioned in the tank's fill pipe, are also sometimes used."

[boostedneonsrt4]

so bascially if you dont change your fuel setup, you run the risk of blowing your shit sky high due to the fact ethanol conducts electricity.

[NoisufnoC]

Quote: Originally Posted by boostedneonsrt4

ford, gm and chrysler all have flex fuel versions of some cars and trucks. they can run on e85 or regular gas.....they have special fuel components that allow this. what i was trying to say was if every car could run e85 then every car sold would be able a flex fuel vehicle and thats not the case. check this out, this might help you out......
"E-85 ethanol is used in engines modified to accept higher concentrations of ethanol. Such flexible-fuel vehicles (FFV) are designed to run on any mixture of gasoline or ethanol with up to 85% ethanol by volume. There are a few major differences between FFVs and non-FFVs. One is the elimination of bare magnesium, aluminum, and rubber parts in the fuel system. Another is that fuel pumps must be capable of operating with electrically conductive ethanol instead of non-conducting dielectric gasoline fuel are used. Fuel injection control systems have a wider range of pulse widths to inject approximately 40% more fuel. Stainless steel fuel lines, sometimes lined with plastic, and stainless steel fuel tanks in place of terne fuel tanks are used. In some cases, FFVs use acid-neutralizing motor oil. For vehicles with fuel-tank mounted fuel pumps, additional differences to prevent arcing, as well as flame arrestors positioned in the tank's fill pipe, are also sometimes used."

its not the case because every car is not equipped with the tune to run E85

[wannasupra]

actually, stoich for e85 is 9.2:1 iirc, and with the sct, you can modify what afr it actually looks for. realistically, injectors that are sized approximately 30% larger than what that horsepower target would require on regular 93 oct, then your fuel problems are finite. other than that, a fuel tank that's compatible with alcohol, a higher volume fuel pump (also alky compatible), and larger fuel lines/o rings/seals that are all alky compatible. as well as having to make sure your fuel injectors won't be corroded by alcohol. it could be done, make no mistake, just the particulars need to be investigated further.

[[H]ardMacK]

My buddy runs E85 in his 93 4-door 650hp civic...

His biggest hurrdle was the lines, pump and injector choice...

He ended up with a coated alum tank with dual sumped pickups to a pair of special order wahlbros, hard lines all the way forward to E85-compat SS Lines and rc 1300cc injectors off a custom driver box to his Neptune.

its pretty interesting setup, and had some guy flown in that knows all about that platform and E85 engine tuning... its pretty cool car tech stuff..

[NoisufnoC]

Quote: Originally Posted by wannasupra

actually, stoich for e85 is 9.2:1 iirc, and with the sct, you can modify what afr it actually looks for. realistically, injectors that are sized approximately 30% larger than what that horsepower target would require on regular 93 oct, then your fuel problems are finite. other than that, a fuel tank that's compatible with alcohol, a higher volume fuel pump (also alky compatible), and larger fuel lines/o rings/seals that are all alky compatible. as well as having to make sure your fuel injectors won't be corroded by alcohol. it could be done, make no mistake, just the particulars need to be investigated further.

i don't believe you can set the AFR for closed loop using the SCT

either way though, if the stock PCM/SCT flash is hunting for 1 lambda it doesn't matter.

I know of multiple people running the walbro 255 w/ E85

[Philth]

Ehhh....

Ef E-85.

Why dont you guys use this stuff we use on the Emergency Power Unit of the F-16, called Hydrazine