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Old 01-16-2010, 08:01 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Nice to see that the guys with the knowledge don't mind sharing some of it! These tips, tricks and beginner explanations will certainly help me out when I start jumping into it.

One thing I like about my old school turbos is the switchable boost. I have a 3 stage MBC.
With using a PRP tune on the PT (GT w/HO turbo) once I have a good stage 2 tune for my set-up, what would be the result of using a manually controlled solenoid to PREVENT the ECU from upping your boost? Like a MBC in reverse. So the ECU will control your high stage, and use the MBC to send a boost signal directly to the WGA, so you have a minium boost setting of like 7psi?
If your torque demand is high, and the ECU wants to see +20psi boost, but only sees 7psi what would happen? At WOT in open loop would you just be washing down your cylinders with fuel? Or would it still be looking at what fuel is required for only the 7psi it's seeing?

You might ask, now why the hell would you want to do this? So when commuting or lazy traveling you could go WOT and not be stuck with max boost all the time. It should also help eliminate the part throttle boost issues I've heard about. Like I said, I kind of like my 3 stage MBC so I have a particular boost for every occasion. Unfortunately, we can't have multiple tunes that you just switch on the fly. (Or with some manual solenoid trickery, can we?)
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too much crap to list, but here are the turbo Mopars:
'05 PT GT auto, many mods to come!
'91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo, 5spd, intercooled, 25psi (lots of mods)
'89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo, auto, intercooled, 27.5psi (lots of budget mods) "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
See it here: http://www.gusmahon.org/html/SLUG.htm
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Old 01-17-2010, 02:45 AM   #62 (permalink)
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My brain hurts. I don't own either the SCT or DSP and haven't decided which I would go with. Reading info like this can help make that decision though.

Keep us updated.
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Old 01-17-2010, 06:38 AM   #63 (permalink)
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Quote: Originally Posted by migci View Post
If your torque demand is high, and the ECU wants to see +20psi boost, but only sees 7psi what would happen? At WOT in open loop would you just be washing down your cylinders with fuel? Or would it still be looking at what fuel is required for only the 7psi it's seeing?

The PCM will just try to raise the boost by increase the Waste-gate Duty cycle, through its apaptive learning, to try to reach 20psi. If the mbc is orginally set to 7psi, the WG DC adaptive might raise this an extra 3-4psi after a few WOT pulls. Depends on the actual WGDC table values and the Adaptive max allowed adjustment. The the mbc will then have to be adjusted again.

Of course when the mbc is removed and higher boost is wanted, the WG adaptives would have to be cleared or you'd get several psi higher than intended. 24psi in this example. Wg apaptive can be cleared by disconnecting the battery.

The PCM will only add enough fuel for the Boost level reported by the MAP.

Add in a mbc sounds like a pain in the ass.

Simply uploading a low boost tune(lower Desired Torque) would be quick and easy.
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Old 01-17-2010, 06:53 AM   #64 (permalink)
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FYI: if you have a DSP to log with, you can keep track of you Wg DC, its modifiers like Temp,RPM and with a little math, even the crazy Adpative learning %. WG Adaptive PIDs?

Here's the important part
Quote: Originally Posted by duster360
TURBO WG RPM TERM
This PID IS the WG DC Table values. It lines up perfectly with RPM(X axis) and the PID TURBO TOTAL AF DES FILTD(Y axis)

TURBO WG BASE(93.75%) = TURBO WG RPM TERM(95.31%) + Amb Term(0%) + ACT Term(-4.688%) + BARO term(3.125%).
[not sure where the PI term fits into this]

Since TURBO WG DC = 79.41% the difference between WG BASE(93.75%) and WG DC(79.41%) MUST be the Adaptive correction(14.34%),, Correct?

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Old 01-17-2010, 08:19 AM   #65 (permalink)
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Hey Duster , there is also a WGA duty-cycle maximum limit setting under the turbocharger section (at least thats where it is in the SCT setup). Would that accomplish an across the board WGA limit ? Im not sure .
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Old 01-17-2010, 12:35 PM   #66 (permalink)
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nice. even more stuff to learn and get familiar with. ha oh well. The cool part is that after this thread and a few others, all this stuff is really starting to make a lot of sense. I wont be able to try the info you sent me Duster until wed, or the tune files you sent me Apexcrazy, but i cant wait to mess with it and will report results every step of the way.
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Old 01-17-2010, 05:09 PM   #67 (permalink)
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Quote: Originally Posted by duster360 View Post
The PCM will just try to raise the boost by increase the Waste-gate Duty cycle, through its apaptive learning, to try to reach 20psi. If the mbc is orginally set to 7psi, the WG DC adaptive might raise this an extra 3-4psi after a few WOT pulls. Depends on the actual WGDC table values and the Adaptive max allowed adjustment. The the mbc will then have to be adjusted again.

Of course when the mbc is removed and higher boost is wanted, the WG adaptives would have to be cleared or you'd get several psi higher than intended. 24psi in this example. Wg apaptive can be cleared by disconnecting the battery.

The PCM will only add enough fuel for the Boost level reported by the MAP.

Add in a mbc sounds like a pain in the ass.

Simply uploading a low boost tune(lower Desired Torque) would be quick and easy.

The WG adaptive max could be set to +/- 0psi, right? So there wouldn't be any spooled adaptive in the PCM when you switched off of the MBC? (Or let it just have some negative adaptive to pull boost back if there was some reason.)
I think you follow me, but to be clear I'm talking about having the MBC being in parallel with the PCM WG control, and using a 3-way solenoid to choose between the two.

The anticipated result would be full PCM control for my max boost, and a low boost tune without having to reflash each time. It might sound like a pain, but I like a little variety!
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too much crap to list, but here are the turbo Mopars:
'05 PT GT auto, many mods to come!
'91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo, 5spd, intercooled, 25psi (lots of mods)
'89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo, auto, intercooled, 27.5psi (lots of budget mods) "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
See it here: http://www.gusmahon.org/html/SLUG.htm
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Old 01-17-2010, 07:08 PM   #68 (permalink)
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subscribed for some excellent info
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Old 01-18-2010, 07:38 AM   #69 (permalink)
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Quote: Originally Posted by apexcrazy View Post
Hey Duster , there is also a WGA duty-cycle maximum limit setting under the turbocharger section (at least thats where it is in the SCT setup). Would that accomplish an across the board WGA limit ? Im not sure .

Wg DC is all ready capped at 95%. Presumably to keep the solenoid from overheating.

I think but haven't proven it:
All that does it cap the Adaptive learning adjustment. The other WG DC adjustments for Ambient temp, ACT, BARO,ect won't be affected and could still raise WG DC above or below the WG DC table values.

To prove if I'm right or wrong, simply set the WG Adaptive hi/lo limits to 0 and log the Amb Term, ACT Term, BARO term and see if they're 0 too.

CMR doesn't have the WG learning limits shown in any of the SRT templates. I'd have to convice the guys at DS to add them.
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Old 01-18-2010, 08:17 AM   #70 (permalink)
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Quote: Originally Posted by migci View Post
The WG adaptive max could be set to +/- 0psi, right? So there wouldn't be any spooled adaptive in the PCM when you switched off of the MBC? (Or let it just have some negative adaptive to pull boost back if there was some reason.)
I think you follow me, but to be clear I'm talking about having the MBC being in parallel with the PCM WG control, and using a 3-way solenoid to choose between the two.

The anticipated result would be full PCM control for my max boost, and a low boost tune without having to reflash each time. It might sound like a pain, but I like a little variety!

I guess it might work but the WG DC table would have to be spot on.

Adding more complexity with an extra 3-way solenoid and mbc doesn't seem worth the hassel. imo its much easier to either have some self-control over your right foot or just take a few minutes to flash a new map.
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Old 01-18-2010, 06:34 PM   #71 (permalink)
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Quote: Originally Posted by duster360 View Post
I guess it might work but the WG DC table would have to be spot on.

Adding more complexity with an extra 3-way solenoid and mbc doesn't seem worth the hassel. imo its much easier to either have some self-control over your right foot or just take a few minutes to flash a new map.

It may seem complex, but really it's simple. The solenoid is either going to allow the WG solenoid to send pressure to the actuator, or it'll block that flow and allow a boost signal directly from the turbo to the WG actuator. This will provide a minimum possible boost (which with a stiffer spring or S2 or AGP might end up being 7-10 psi all by itself).
Having that same acuator with using the PCM to control WG and having like a S2 flash, even with self control, you'll get alot of part throttle boosting, right?

My goal is when I need the extra go power on the highway (for whatever reason , I'd like to be able to flip a switch, rather than have to pull over and re-flash).

Having the PRP makes me want to think about letting the PCM control the high boost, but I want to be able to fake out the pcm for a low boost fuel economy (yet still be able to go WOT). Sometimes I'd like full-throttle but don't need 400 ft-lbs of torque.

I'm sorry if it seems like I'm stubborn, (which I am BTW, ) I'm probably the only one who's thinking being able to switch between two levels without having to re-flash is a good thing.

And thanks for the constructive dialogue, I'll have to get a few things done before I'm ready to try out a reflash. So being able to discuss some theoretical ideas is helpful.
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too much crap to list, but here are the turbo Mopars:
'05 PT GT auto, many mods to come!
'91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo, 5spd, intercooled, 25psi (lots of mods)
'89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo, auto, intercooled, 27.5psi (lots of budget mods) "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
See it here: http://www.gusmahon.org/html/SLUG.htm

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Old 01-19-2010, 11:50 AM   #72 (permalink)
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Best/easiest way to accomplish your goal is to go with a Toys PCM and programming, along with the full Turbo Toys, or a N2MB Toybox.
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Old 01-19-2010, 04:14 PM   #73 (permalink)
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Migci , I see what your after here , and its more than appropriate to ask whether its possible or not .
But , What Duster is trying to say is its the adaptive ability of the ECU that is the fly in the ointment here . When you take the soliniod out of the loop , you are in effect taking away the ECUs ability to control the boost . Thats all well & good , for the moment , if thats what your after , but all the while you are driving around at 7psi the ECU will build a memory of exaggerated WGA duty cycle amounts . This is because with boost externally limited to 7 psi , It will keep thinking the boost is too low , add WGA duty cycle , still no boost increase , more WGA DC , on & on , adapting as far as possible with no change in boost .
Now , when you flip back to ECU controlled boost ( aka pcm boost ) the WGA adaptives will be all wacky . It will then take a while for the system to relearn whats really going on , now that it has control of the boost again .

I would think (but not reccomend) that it would work better if the external boost control was the "high boost mode" ( pure speculation on my part ) .

There is no proper way to change boost "on the fly" without toys . Thats just the way this ECU is set up . Untill we get control of the adaptive qualities of this ECU , it is best not to lie to it . All of this is just my opinion , however .

And Buzzkill , we kinda got off track with your thread . But I hope you get to work on it tommorrow . Ill stay posted .
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Old 01-19-2010, 07:13 PM   #74 (permalink)
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Quote: Originally Posted by nemiro View Post
Best/easiest way to accomplish your goal is to go with a Toys PCM and programming, along with the full Turbo Toys, or a N2MB Toybox.

Unfortunately Neil I don't think that would be a possible option for me. The vehicle in question here is an '05 PT GT, with ATX. I don't think the SRT4 toys PCM would work on that, at least I thought I heard it wouldn't.

And, good to see you are still at it with the Mopar turbos! It's been a long time since I've been on a message board with you! I'm sure I could use some advice from you in the future. I had been out of the loop for a while, now trying to get back in with the PT (for the utility/versatility and it'll make another good sleeper!)
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too much crap to list, but here are the turbo Mopars:
'05 PT GT auto, many mods to come!
'91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo, 5spd, intercooled, 25psi (lots of mods)
'89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo, auto, intercooled, 27.5psi (lots of budget mods) "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
See it here: http://www.gusmahon.org/html/SLUG.htm

Last edited by migci; 01-19-2010 at 07:19 PM.
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Old 01-19-2010, 07:18 PM   #75 (permalink)
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Quote: Originally Posted by apexcrazy View Post
And Buzzkill , we kinda got off track with your thread . But I hope you get to work on it tommorrow . Ill stay posted .

Firstly I really didn't mean to hyjack your thread Buzzkill. If you'd like I'll carry this over to a new thread. I was just asking and adding to the discussion while we all waited for the next update on your programming progress.
Just let me know. it's all good either way!
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too much crap to list, but here are the turbo Mopars:
'05 PT GT auto, many mods to come!
'91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo, 5spd, intercooled, 25psi (lots of mods)
'89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo, auto, intercooled, 27.5psi (lots of budget mods) "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
See it here: http://www.gusmahon.org/html/SLUG.htm
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