flashing stock pcm to staged with prp

[buzzkill]

cool, didnt know that about the prp package. thought once sct was mated with a pcm that was it.

also, you actually tweaked a tune to get me going in the right direction based on my mods huh. thats cool. I will def use the compare function like you stated in your post to see what the hell is going on. i'm sure it will help a lot. as far as codes, the downstream o2 is of with the stage two pcm flash right? also no overboost i hope. I know stage one pcm negated the code so i am assuming the stage two flash will get rid of that code as well.

[buzzkill]

got the files bro. thanks again. I'll do my best to try em out tomorrow or at least compare both to stage two stock tune so I can learn what is being changed and get more familiar with the software. You kick ass.

I will do my best to check out the files tomorrow but I was supposed to work but got someone to cover so I could spend some time with the wifey. so i think free time might be at a minimum. but if i cant get to it tomorrow, it will prolly be next wed. I'll be off from wed thru sat so should be able to get a lot done.

And one other thing bro, I the modded tune you sent with boosted power over stage two should be safe to load and tweak initially right?

Thanks Tom

Erik

[apexcrazy]

The lightly modded flash is just a generic stage2 meant for the stage2 WGA . it got me around 20 psi that fell to 16 at redline , but im on a bone stock turbo , your FM WGA & your big wheel stock turbo may boost more at the top . The enrichment tables were flattened out as well , in my car they gave me a straight 11.8 AFR , all the way to redline . Exhaust temp max was bumped from 950 to 1500 , exhaust temp enrichment was also reduced . Stage2 has a higher overboost threshold than stage0,1 . I never saw an overboost code on my stocker . Its easy to change , if thats decided . The downstrean o2 code is disabled , I believe .
Your WGA & turbo may react differently than mine , if later you decide to try this flash keep that in mind . I sent it for you to reference , but feel free to use as you see fit .

[buzzkill]

i will use it in reference mostly, but if you already did a lot of that tweaking i may see how it acts on the car.
with my dsp tune and the fm wga i am able to run 24 psi till about 4800 rpm, then tapers evenly off to 21 psi by 5700 rpm. then it levels out pretty much. that is with no spike also. i love the FM wga!!!!

I'll report back tomorrow if i get time to mess with it.

[apexcrazy]

Quote: Originally Posted by buzzkill

And one other thing bro, I the modded tune you sent with boosted power over stage two should be safe to load and tweak initially right?

Thanks Tom

Erik

I doubt they are as high as the boost levels you had in your DSP flash , they are pretty conservative . I think its like at most a 10% increase in desired torque in the last two rows at high PRM only .
If you havent figured out by now , you really dont deal directly with controlling the boost levels with this ECU , you tell it what torque amount you want at what PRM/throttle position , and it determines what boost will get you there . If you look under turbocharger , desired torque , and scroll down to the bottom you will see some red values , these are the changes I made here . compare them to stock to see the difference . you can also restore them to stock values , if you wish .

I am staying on the conservative side of things for now . Dont be dissapointed if these early flashes dont make as much power as your DSP flash does . The point is to get the basic foundation set first . When thats all sorted , then you can dial it up .

[buzzkill]

i think one of the things that will take the most "trial and error" time is getting my fm wga set right where it is comparable to a stage two wag so when i adjust in the tune it will act right. might be wrong though. guess we'll see.

[duster360]

Quote: Originally Posted by apexcrazy

Ok . I took a look at your rescale .
it looks like your rescale factor was 1.0446 . That means that you told the ECU that the new injectors flow 4 & 1/2 percent more than the stage2 injectors . And sure enough , thats what the SCT wiki told you . Its not what my data proves to be the case . I forgot the WIKI calculation was so low . As Duster will attest , there seems to be conflicting info on this subject . It seems that most agree that the RC650 injectors flow about 10%-12% more than stage 2 . My personal experience has led me to believe that my set is flowing 15% over the stage2 injectors in a 58 psi static pressure fuel system (stock)

That's correct they're 10%-12% larger than S2s. RC650 run about 750cc at 58psi. The Wiki got info off the "SRT-4 Common Injector Flow - Math/Info/Chart!" sticky in the FUEL section and I have proven that to be incorrect.:WRONG INFO!!Injector Flow - Math/Info/Chart!

[duster360]

Quote: Originally Posted by buzzkill

thanks anyway duster..

Pull the "Last tune written" off with your DSP and send me that file and I can open it no problem.

[duster360]

Quote: Originally Posted by buzzkill

with my dsp tune and the fm wga i am able to run 24 psi till about 4800 rpm, then tapers evenly off to 21 psi by 5700 rpm. then it levels out pretty much. that is with no spike also. i love the FM wga!!!!

If you send me that DSP tune and I can give you the WG DC and DT values and you can paste them over your S2 values.

In theory, your boost lvl and curve will be exactly as it was with your DSP tune,,,,if the wga preload is the same.

[apexcrazy]

Quote: Originally Posted by duster360

If you send me that DSP tune and I can give you the WG DC and DT values and you can paste them over your S2 values.

In theory, your boost lvl and curve will be exactly as it was with your DSP tune,,,,if the wga preload is the same.

That makes sense to me . Both systems (DSP / SCT) are controlling the ECU in the same way , they are just organized & labled differently , so it seems .

I am assuming the DSP tune is based on a 2.25 bar setup ( stage0 , or 1 ) so the ECU might not use the two tables exactly the same as a stage2 flash , but these differences should be inconsequential . They should be limited to small differences such as some torque-reduction thresholds , I think an extra row of "map in kpa" values in the desired torque table , maybe in the WGA duty cycle table too . These can easily be extrapolated (filled in with an educated guess).
Buzzkill , did I read that you have the original stage2 WGA ? If so , I would like to point out that it may be advantageous to use it when you want to dial in these tables . They have been written with that exact WGA in mind , once you get a feel for how the WGA is supposed to react with the ECU , then you can use your FM unit & have a point of reference as to what the ECU is expecting of the WGA . Did that make sense ? I could be splitting hairs here , but I just wanted to point that out .
Which brings me to this idea of a good "Foundation" for your tunes . Without going off on tangents , Let me say that you can get a PRP tune to make your car go faster , pretty easy . you can , but shouldnt , just go straight past the injector rescaling , as i said before , up to a point , the ECU will adapt . It will still shoot for the stociometric AFR in part throttle , closed-loop mode . It will then build a long term fuel trim memory that will be applied ( to an extent , i think ) to your WOT , open-loop mode . But that is not the proper way to do it because it will ultimatley lead you astray . In that example above , the initial math used by the ECU for the fuel charge would be wrong , and the ECU will have to apply other math to it to get it in the right range . Seems ok , untill you realize that many othere things are going on with these calculations . Like this .
In open loop mode . the ECU doesnt actually know what the AFRs are , its not reading the o2 sensors for that information . the stock sensors are a narrowband type sensor . They can only nod their head , or point in two directions . That is to say , they can tell the ECU One of three things .
1. The AFR is correct for closed loop , 14.7
2. The AFR is below 14.7
3. the AFR is above 14.7
But when you are in open loop mode , that would be too lean of a mixture , your motor wants a richer fuel charge , something in the 11.8 range . Since the ECU/o2 sensor combo cannot actually target an AFR that is NOT 14.7 , it has to extrapolate . That is what the Power Enrichment table for . The values in the table here are modifier values that are used to calculate how much fuel will be added at what boost/rpm level to achieve desired AFR at WOT . Which , in the enhancements flash i sent you were at .015 across the board . That , if the initial rescaling is correct , will give the ECU a target AFR in the mid 11s . If the math is wrong in the first place , these calculations will be skewed & incorrect . Your ECU will never know because it in open loop mode , it is assuming the initial math was correct & it cant see that its wrong .
This dynamic plays itself out in other scenarios as well .

That said I too am guilty of ignoring my own advice . While most of my recent flashes have dealt with a e-85 mix , I should have taken the time to get my LTFTs spot on in my gasoline flashes . they still arent perfect at & below Idle PWM (1000 & below) . But no worries , they are well within the accepted limits for me . It still targeted a perfect 14.7 afr at idle , confirmed by my wideband .

[buzzkill]

wow, all the info listed in this thread is very very helpful and will no doubt help some other guys out as well. I'm gonna read over all of it tonight most likely. Got an extra day off work today and my wife wants to spend time together. Weird, huh? So prolly wont mess with it today but will def read over all the recent posts tonight.

And Duster, pm me your email again. I dont think I still have it. I'll send you the tune thats on the car right now. Also, I can just send you the tune file i have on the computer right? or do you need the base pcm file as well? I can send whatever you need. just let me know.

[duster360]

Quote: Originally Posted by buzzkill

And Duster, pm me your email again. I dont think I still have it. I'll send you the tune thats on the car right now. Also, I can just send you the tune file i have on the computer right? or do you need the base pcm file as well? I can send whatever you need. just let me know.

If you made changes to Boost with the Predator, I'd need the "last tune written".

If you didn't make any changes the tune on your PC will work just fine. If you have your orignal back file saved, send that too, if not don't worry about.
dave@trojahn,com.

Your Desired Torque table should transfer right over but the S2 Wastgate DC table has a couple extra rows for higher airflow as apexcrazy mentioned.

[buzzkill]

i didnt mess with the boost on the handheld at all. Just adjusted the wga on the car before it was tuned to get it right.

Sending file now.

[buzzkill]

also sent base file in case you needed it.

[buzzkill]

Quote: Originally Posted by apexcrazy

That makes sense to me . Both systems (DSP / SCT) are controlling the ECU in the same way , they are just organized & labled differently , so it seems .

I am assuming the DSP tune is based on a 2.25 bar setup ( stage0 , or 1 ) so the ECU might not use the two tables exactly the same as a stage2 flash , but these differences should be inconsequential . They should be limited to small differences such as some torque-reduction thresholds , I think an extra row of "map in kpa" values in the desired torque table , maybe in the WGA duty cycle table too . These can easily be extrapolated (filled in with an educated guess).
Buzzkill , did I read that you have the original stage2 WGA ? If so , I would like to point out that it may be advantageous to use it when you want to dial in these tables . They have been written with that exact WGA in mind , once you get a feel for how the WGA is supposed to react with the ECU , then you can use your FM unit & have a point of reference as to what the ECU is expecting of the WGA . Did that make sense ? I could be splitting hairs here , but I just wanted to point that out .
Which brings me to this idea of a good "Foundation" for your tunes . Without going off on tangents , Let me say that you can get a PRP tune to make your car go faster , pretty easy . you can , but shouldnt , just go straight past the injector rescaling , as i said before , up to a point , the ECU will adapt . It will still shoot for the stociometric AFR in part throttle , closed-loop mode . It will then build a long term fuel trim memory that will be applied ( to an extent , i think ) to your WOT , open-loop mode . But that is not the proper way to do it because it will ultimatley lead you astray . In that example above , the initial math used by the ECU for the fuel charge would be wrong , and the ECU will have to apply other math to it to get it in the right range . Seems ok , untill you realize that many othere things are going on with these calculations . Like this .
In open loop mode . the ECU doesnt actually know what the AFRs are , its not reading the o2 sensors for that information . the stock sensors are a narrowband type sensor . They can only nod their head , or point in two directions . That is to say , they can tell the ECU One of three things .
1. The AFR is correct for closed loop , 14.7
2. The AFR is below 14.7
3. the AFR is above 14.7
But when you are in open loop mode , that would be too lean of a mixture , your motor wants a richer fuel charge , something in the 11.8 range . Since the ECU/o2 sensor combo cannot actually target an AFR that is NOT 14.7 , it has to extrapolate . That is what the Power Enrichment table for . The values in the table here are modifier values that are used to calculate how much fuel will be added at what boost/rpm level to achieve desired AFR at WOT . Which , in the enhancements flash i sent you were at .015 across the board . That , if the initial rescaling is correct , will give the ECU a target AFR in the mid 11s . If the math is wrong in the first place , these calculations will be skewed & incorrect . Your ECU will never know because it in open loop mode , it is assuming the initial math was correct & it cant see that its wrong .
This dynamic plays itself out in other scenarios as well .

That said I too am guilty of ignoring my own advice . While most of my recent flashes have dealt with a e-85 mix , I should have taken the time to get my LTFTs spot on in my gasoline flashes . they still arent perfect at & below Idle PWM (1000 & below) . But no worries , they are well within the accepted limits for me . It still targeted a perfect 14.7 afr at idle , confirmed by my wideband .

This def makes a lot of sense to me and is some damn strong info for anyone getting into the tuning process. Thanks for taking the time to explain it all out for us new guys!!!