Aquamist would like to take this opportunity to thank you for purchasing our latest HFS-5 (High Flow System -Stage5) water injection system. Some background first, reminding what you have invested. Without a doubt, you will be receiving the best system to date, in terms of electronically and mechanically. You have it all.
Starting with the pump, it is custom built by Shurflo to handle water and methanol at any concentration to our request. Unlike other systems, we don?t use a demand switch to control pressure which causes flow fluctuation commonly known as "pulsing". Three internal by-pass valves keep the water pressure a very stable at 125psi during delivery. An inline surge arrestor gives further smoothing of the system pressure. It also keeps some residual pressure for the next injection event.
A massive 150W motor is used to keep up the high flow and pressure demand beyond a litre per minute. The motor runs cool in comparison with lower rated ones. Each fitting is specially designed and selected to work with the pump's inlet and outlet port. This completes the minimum requirement for a "progressive valve system".
High Speed Inline valve (HSV) is specially designed to closely matching the flow and pressure characteristics of the system. Response time is 1.8ms on opening and closing. Flow capacity is in excess of 1.5 litres per minute! Making this valve the fastest and highest flow in the WI industry. Track record speaks for itself; practically every WRC teams have used it since the beginning of the World Rally championship.
The "failsafe" department employs the service of the DDS3 flow monitoring system. Specially designed to monitor the flow and display it onto a custom made high-quality dash gauge. An Aquamist digital turbine flow sensor provides the flow information. A highly advanced fault diagnostic circuitry inside the DDS3v8 junction box completes the setup. Map switching, raise boost, lower boost, map clamp etc, are all well within the capability of the system.
You will very soon be in possession of a highly sophisticated system from Aquamist but the true potential will only be realised by a good installation. Unfortunately, we are unable to help you in person so the next, probably the most important stage. Please use this thread to either inform or discuss your particular application and let us learn some of your intended setup and at the same time educating us.
WARNING:
(Great care must be exercised when 100% methanol is used)
1) The system must be checked for smallest leaks. Any electrical spark will start a fire. 2) Breather hole from the tank must be vented outside the car, well away from the exhaust pipe. If the correct air/methanol concentration is attained during the incoming air occupying the void left by the deminishing methanol level inside the tank. It can potentially be quite exposive. 3) All electrical connections must be terminated properly, avoid any sparkes being generated. 4) The tank area must be well ventilated in case some methanol is spilled during re-filling. I strongly suggesting using a remote filler cap, positioned well away from carpet or any fluid absorbing materials such as trunk lining or carpets. You can get them from: http://fluids.flambeau.com/components/remote_filler_spouts.html 5) Common sense is essential and don't take any risk.
By next week, most you would have received the HFS-5 kit. Plan your installation now.
... from Jack and Richard, the Aquamist technical help team.
Last edited by Richard_L : 03-04-2007 at 09:50 AM.
I am planning to inject straight distilled water, since alcohol injection is not permitted under SCCA autocross rules for street cars and that's the direction I'm heading with the car. Would port injection on the manifold be superior to injecting into the induction pipe connecting to the throttle body? I know that distribution would be more even cylinder to cylinder, but I also understand that there may be some additional cooling benefit to injecting pre-throttle body.
Which installation approach is superior overall?
What installation approach has been taken by WRC cars in the past?
There is no reason why you can't use both. A small set of port injectors as well as one large injector near the exit of the intercooler.
If you are using port injection only, ensure the jets are fully checked for spray pattern and flow. Purge the delivery line right through before connecting to the port injection line. Make a note of the number of bars on the gauge at the start and check for "below normal" bar display occasionally.
Last edited by Richard_L : 03-07-2007 at 02:30 AM.
Thanks for the above response. I have more questions now that I've looked more carefully at the documentation for the install.
I'm an electronics novice, so please don't hesitate to point out the obvious.
1. Is there any difference between the "trigger" for the failsafe monitoring water flow and the "trigger" for starting water flow, or are those always at the same point? I think they are the same. Please confirm.
2. Is there a 1 to 1 relationship between the fuel injector pulsewidth and the pulsewidth of the HSV, once the trigger threshold is met?
3. If you use a MAP sensor (MPS) as the trigger, then do you use the "Trip ADJ" potentiometer to adjust the boost pressure at which you wish the system to turn on?
4. Do you recommend triggering the system using MPS or injector duty cycle? What are the advantages and disadvantages of each approach? I do have a MAP sensor in the car, so I can do either one for the same expense.
5. I use an aftermarket electronic boost controller with a solenoid between the turbo and the wastegate. In a fault event, I want this solenoid to be disabled so the boost pressure is reduced to wastegate pressure. In the instructions, it talks about "cutting the feed" to the valve. I'm not sure what that means. Should I be splicing into the ground (black) or power (red) wire for the solenoid to interrupt power to it in a fault event?
6. I understand that the pin 11/12 switch should be closed when the DDS3 is turned on, even if water is not flowing, whenever the trigger condition has not occurred. So, my boost solenoid should still function (i.e., pin 11/12 switch closed) prior to water flowing if I am below the injector duty cycle or MPS threshold, correct?
7. What is the state of the pin 11/12 switch when the DDS3 is not turned on? Would the switch be open or closed? I need to be able to drive my car with the water injection system turned off without having the failsafe triggered, even if I exceed the threshold MPS or injector duty cycle. If that switch is closed when the DD3 isn't turned on, then I'm all set. However, if that switch is normally open when the DDS3 is off, then I would need to find a solution to this issue.
8. Should the nozzles only be installed between the blow-off/diverter valve and the throttle body? If they are installed between the intercooler outlet and the blow-off valve, then, when manifold pressure goes to vacuum (partial or no throttle) and the valve is opened, the residual mist between the nozzle and the valve is going to be either recirculated through the turbo (with a recirculating diverter valve on a MAF-based FI system) or vented into the engine compartment (which would seem to be a fire hazard with high concentrations of alcohol).
Thanks for the above response. I have more questions now that I've looked more carefully at the documentation for the install.
I'm an electronics novice, so please don't hesitate to point out the obvious.
1. Is there any difference between the "trigger" for the failsafe monitoring water flow and the "trigger" for starting water flow, or are those always at the same point? I think they are the same. Please confirm.
It will always be at the same point, but the failsafe has a 2-second "grace period" before reporting a fault.
2. Is there a 1 to 1 relationship between the fuel injector pulsewidth and the pulsewidth of the HSV, once the trigger threshold is met?
Yes, the pulse width will be 1:1, but the actual water/fuel flow will be detarmined by jet size to total fuel injector size.
3. If you use a MAP sensor (MPS) as the trigger, then do you use the "Trip ADJ" potentiometer to adjust the boost pressure at which you wish the system to turn on?
Yes, perfectly stated
4. Do you recommend triggering the system using MPS or injector duty cycle? What are the advantages and disadvantages of each approach? I do have a MAP sensor in the car, so I can do either one for the same expense.
Good question, this is something yet to be determined by this thread, I don't know the answer. This is a brand new system, hoping more people may chime in and discuss this in more depth.
5. I use an aftermarket electronic boost controller with a solenoid between the turbo and the wastegate. In a fault event, I want this solenoid to be disabled so the boost pressure is reduced to wastegate pressure. In the instructions, it talks about "cutting the feed" to the valve. I'm not sure what that means. Should I be splicing into the ground (black) or power (red) wire for the solenoid to interrupt power to it in a fault event?
I can answer this one. The pin11 and pin12 of the DDD3 is just a set of relay contact, so you can slplice/cut either feed to your boost solenoid. Traditionally, the negative feed (pulsed) is spliced
6. I understand that the pin 11/12 switch should be closed when the DDS3 is turned on, even if water is not flowing, whenever the trigger condition has not occurred. So, my boost solenoid should still function (i.e., pin 11/12 switch closed) prior to water flowing if I am below the injector duty cycle or MPS threshold, correct?
Yes, the pin 11/12 will always be closed, until a fault is detected or the DDS3 is switched off. You need to determine where the triggering point of the water injection should be before the it is considered to be a risk to your engine's life. In this case, trigger by boost is more appropriate.
7. What is the state of the pin 11/12 switch when the DDS3 is not turned on? Would the switch be open or closed? I need to be able to drive my car with the water injection system turned off without having the failsafe triggered, even if I exceed the threshold MPS or injector duty cycle. If that switch is closed when the DD3 isn't turned on, then I'm all set. However, if that switch is normally open when the DDS3 is off, then I would need to find a solution to this issue.
[color="blue"]Pin 11/12 is open circuited (also open-circuit in the event of a blown fuse).
If you drive the car with the DDS3 turned off, you will only get wastegate pressure. Does your boost controller have a switch that select different level of boost? if so, the pin11/12 can be used to change level of boost rather at wastegate.
There is another possibility, pin 9/10. If you use this output to switch in a secondary solenoid valve, bleeding more air to the wastegate. The boost is now raised over you Electronic boost controller setting. It will work providing it doesn't have a closed loop cirucuit.
8. Should the nozzles only be installed between the blow-off/diverter valve and the throttle body? If they are installed between the intercooler outlet and the blow-off valve, then, when manifold pressure goes to vacuum (partial or no throttle) and the valve is opened, the residual mist between the nozzle and the valve is going to be either recirculated through the turbo (with a recirculating diverter valve on a MAF-based FI system) or vented into the engine compartment (which would seem to be a fire hazard with high concentrations of alcohol).
Another good point, I know most yong drives like the sound of the dump valve, but if you are running 100methanol, it will be fire hazard for sure. The simplest solution is by ducting the vented air back into the vacuum side of the manifold (causes run-on) or vent it away from the heated elements.
Thanks very much for your help.
RichJ (04 Mitsu Evo)
These are great questions....
Last edited by Richard_L : 03-05-2007 at 07:12 PM.
1. Is there any difference between the "trigger" for the failsafe monitoring water flow and the "trigger" for starting water flow, or are those always at the same point? I think they are the same. Please confirm.
It will always be at the same point, but the failsafe has a 2-second "grace period" before reporting a fault.
I'm a bit concerned about that grace period. Why was that included in the design of the DDS3? 2 seconds seems like a really long time to me. At 6000 rpm, that's 200 revolutions of the engine, which (I think) is more than enough opportunity to break a piston if you have 20%-40% of your fuel coming in through the WI system. I've always heard that severe detonation can break a piston almost instantly. I think it would be much less of a concern with injecting straight water, however, since the engine would be less dependent.
Is there a way to adjust that delay to a shorter period? Am I worried over nothing?
Quote:
8. Should the nozzles only be installed between the blow-off/diverter valve and the throttle body? If they are installed between the intercooler outlet and the blow-off valve, then, when manifold pressure goes to vacuum (partial or no throttle) and the valve is opened, the residual mist between the nozzle and the valve is going to be either recirculated through the turbo (with a recirculating diverter valve on a MAF-based FI system) or vented into the engine compartment (which would seem to be a fire hazard with high concentrations of alcohol).
Another good point, I know most yong drives like the sound of the dump valve, but if you are running 100methanol, it will be fire hazard for sure. The simplest solution is by ducting the vented air back into the vacuum side of the manifold (causes run-on) or vent it away from the heated elements.
Do you see a problem venting the mist back through the turbo? I've read that pre-turbo injection can cause issues with the compressor blades, but I guess in this case there would already be good atomization. Then again, I could see the water/alcohol coming out of suspension in the intercooler, particularly since the motor would likely not be under boost after the venting event. I think I may try to stick with locating the jets upstream of the diverter valve for starters. I guess this is one issue that you don't have to deal with if you use port injection.
I'm a bit concerned about that grace period. Why was that included in the design of the DDS3? 2 seconds seems like a really long time to me. At 6000 rpm, that's 200 revolutions of the engine, which (I think) is more than enough opportunity to break a piston if you have 20%-40% of your fuel coming in through the WI system. I've always heard that severe detonation can break a piston almost instantly. I think it would be much less of a concern with injecting straight water, however, since the engine would be less dependent.
Is there a way to adjust that delay to a shorter period? Am I worried over nothing?
The grace period can be nulled out completely. I think you need to have some grace period to avoid boost cut during gear change. As the HFS-5 can start injection from idle without flooding the engine. All you need to change is a fixed resistor - we may make this a user adjustable on the next version.
Quote:
8. Should the nozzles only be installed between the blow-off/diverter valve and the throttle body? If they are installed between the intercooler outlet and the blow-off valve, then, when manifold pressure goes to vacuum (partial or no throttle) and the valve is opened, the residual mist between the nozzle and the valve is going to be either recirculated through the turbo (with a recirculating diverter valve on a MAF-based FI system) or vented into the engine compartment (which would seem to be a fire hazard with high concentrations of alcohol).
Another good point, I know most yong drives like the sound of the dump valve, but if you are running 100methanol, it will be fire hazard for sure. The simplest solution is by ducting the vented air back into the vacuum side of the manifold (causes run-on) or vent it away from the heated elements.
Do you see a problem venting the mist back through the turbo? I've read that pre-turbo injection can cause issues with the compressor blades, but I guess in this case there would already be good atomization. Then again, I could see the water/alcohol coming out of suspension in the intercooler, particularly since the motor would likely not be under boost after the venting event. I think I may try to stick with locating the jets upstream of the diverter valve for starters. I guess this is one issue that you don't have to deal with if you use port injection.
The grace period can be nulled out completely. I think you need to have some grace period to avoid boost cut during gear change. As the HFS-5 can start injection from idle without flooding the engine. All you need to change is a fixed resistor - we may make this a user adjustable on the next version.
When you say "all you need to change is a fixed resistor," are you talking about what Aquamist needs to change in the design of the product, or what the end user can change with the current version of the DDS3?
Is this something that I will be able to adjust with the current kit?
Currently, user can change the value of the fixed resistor for shortening or extending the grace period.
Aquamist design this product with this grace period, taken into consideration of other factors as gear change, operation near the triggering point etc. If a dropping boost is part of the failsafe action, you will experience boost fluctuation every gear change.
Alternatively, null it out altogether by removing one component. What would be your ideal grace period after it have been triggered?
Last edited by Richard_L : 03-06-2007 at 05:22 PM.
Currently, user can change the value of the fixed resistor for shortening or extending the grace period.
Aquamist design this product with this grace period, taken into consideration of other factors as gear change, operation near the triggering point etc. If a dropping boost is part of the failsafe action, you will experience boost fluctuation every gear change.
Alternatively, null it out altogether by removing one component. What would be your ideal grace period after it have been triggered?
It's not clear to me why a fault event would occur on a gear change or when operating near the trigger point? What is the circumstance where the user would be past the trigger point, say a certain injector duty cycle, and yet water flow ordinarily wouldn't be within the designated window and thus the pin 11/12 switch would open and cut boost (assuming that the system is set up to cut boost upon a fault event, rather than enabling high boost upon adequate water flow)?
Does the flow sensor need a fixed minimum amount of time to measure flow, and below that amount of time a fault event will occur if there is operation past the trigger point (IDC or MPS)? In other words, a potential false alarm because the amount of time spent past the trigger threshold was too short to adequately measure flow and make a determination (thus opening the 11/12 switch)? Not sure if I'm being clear...
It's not clear to me why a fault event would occur on a gear change or when operating near the trigger point? What is the circumstance where the user would be past the trigger point, say a certain injector duty cycle, and yet water flow ordinarily wouldn't be within the designated window and thus the pin 11/12 switch would open and cut boost (assuming that the system is set up to cut boost upon a fault event, rather than enabling high boost upon adequate water flow)?
Does the flow sensor need a fixed minimum amount of time to measure flow, and below that amount of time a fault event will occur if there is operation past the trigger point (IDC or MPS)? In other words, a potential false alarm because the amount of time spent past the trigger threshold was too short to adequately measure flow and make a determination (thus opening the 11/12 switch)? Not sure if I'm being clear...
Thanks again.
In order to avoid various transients from various electronic circuits or sensors causing the "failsafe" circuitry to induce false triggering. We have introduced some damping to each one of the component. It is similar to putting glycerine in pressure gauges.
The flow sensor do have a time constant on the rise edge and falling edge. This is due to sample rate taken between pulses from the turbine. The more the sample, the more accurate the output but it also take time. The time taken to change the output voltage is also affect by the speed of the turbine. At low flow, the sample time is also longer. The response time between between 25-75% of the full scale is about 0.2 second.
At present, the delay time is not due to the response of the sensor, it is controlled by the final stage - which is quite simple to null it down to zero. I am just concern if the delay is too short, it will cause a great deal of other false triggering problems.
I believe you can safely bring it down to 0.3s to 0.5s, between the WH and WL, the system will still function well with minimum of ripple.
What do you think the response time should be? Removing one component will bring it down to about 0.3s. This is the best we can expect from the current system until the next sensor version.
If you are still concerned, I suggest you putting the flow sensor in the trunk, a few inches from the pump. It will give you a second or two grace period.
Last edited by Richard_L : 03-07-2007 at 01:56 PM.
In my case of using the PMC, I dont think there would be any concerns, but please comfirm my understanding.
My clamp value will be relative to the water flow, all controlled withing the PMC. So even though there is a 2 second delay for the 'failsafe' the WFS will still communicate this 'flow drop' to the PMC before this 2s delay...correct?
In essense the sample time from the turbine is not 2s. 2 sec refers to the time it take for a reaction to a detected flow drop.
I hope I explained it correctly
__________________
Quote: Originally Posted by Dole Smelly
Just for the record, the torque setting for the oil drain plug is 20 ft-lbs, not infinity.
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Aquamist HFS-5 system: Official Q&A...
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