Go Back   SRT Forums - SRT4, SRT6, SRT8, SRT10 & Dodge Forum > SRT-4 Technical Discussion > Performance Modifications
Register Home ForumForum Rules Photo Gallery Active Topics (D) Chat Mark Forums Read


SRTForums.com is the premier Dodge Neon SRT-4 on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads. Please Register - It's Free!


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-02-2004, 12:29 PM   #1 (permalink)
SRTforums Member
 
Romans8:28's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Member Number: 12264
Location: Gods Country
Trader Rating: (4)
Posts: 4,527
Default Boost controllers and wga's basics (how they work together)

I figured I would start a thread to help the endless stream of guys who are asking questions basic about these devices (either in tandom or by themselves)

To control the boost in your SRT your need a "wga" waste gate actuator (to move the turbo wastegate) and a boost controller in one form or another be it PCM, electronic aftermarket, manual or bleed/bleed tee. Remember the turbo will literally spin itself out of control in a self perpetuating cycle without boost control. And boost control is gained by use of boost itself.

The waste gate actuator holds the wastegate shut by virtue of a spring/spring tension. This spring can be provided and in turn purchased at different rates ie: 4 psi, 7, psi, 14 psi, etc. The waste gate when installed in a relaxed arm position (no pre tension of the spring) will maintain the wastegate closed until the boost pressure equals or surpases the rated spring pressure.

Pre-tension or "tunning" the wga by adjusting the actuator arm length in effect changes the spring rate (making the spring "stronger") and will hold the waste gate closed at even higher presssures (with no real limit which can be dangerous).

The wga has a diaphragm side which is pressurized by the turbo boost pressure (via the "green line" blue line" black line" etc) which when it reaches a high enough pressure will overide the force of the wga spring (assuming the spring is of a correct range and the wga is not over-tensioned) and force the wga arm to move and in turn open the wastegate.

A boost controller determines at what pressure and or how much pressure is allowed to flow to the wga diaph and cause it to move or start to move open.

Your SRT4 PCM/ECU is an electronic boost controller in and of itself and a damn fine one at that. It commands soleniod#2 by electrical signal to modulate open and pulse boost pressure flow to the wga on a graduated scale in response the relative position on the "boost table". The PCM will use boost to control boost.

A manual boost controller will accomplish boost control in a similar fashion, except it normally reduces the pressure that flows through it thereby artificially creating a reduced boost pressure being passed along to the wga. For example you may be actually boosting at 15 psi, but the manual boost controller is set to only pass 10 psi along to the wga, so its 12psi spring is not moved by the 10 psi, all the while its actually boosting at 15 and would normally be coming open by then. Of course a mbc is an all or nothing proposition and does not offer any graduated control based upon gear/rpm. Electronic boost controllers are required to accomplish this type of control.

A manual bleed also accomplishes the same thing as a MBC its just not easily adjustable. The bleed tee simply lets some of the boost preesure to escape to atmosphere so an artifically high boost pressure is required to actually move the wga arm (its like trying to blow up a ballon with a hole in it)

Running a aftermarket wga without a bleed, mbc, or keeping it on the stock pcm is very primative and counter productive. The pressure line you run to your wga is always going to be "on" or "fully pressurized" with whatever the boost pressure happens to be at the moment and affords no adjustment whats so ever. The diaph will always be charged and attempting to move the spring constantly. Its actually the safest way and will provide control, but its far less affective than even the stock arrangement.

Running a aftermarket wga with to large of a bleed or a boost controller set to aggresively can be very dangerous and even wreck your engine because the appropriate motive force is not being sent to the wga diaph. Over adjusting your wga arm can create dangerous levels of pretension requiring far to much boost pressure/force to open.

I offer this "primative" explanation in order to help some of the new guys gain an understanding of whats going on with their wga/boost controller mods

Any and all comments/clarifications are completely welcome and evn encouraged.

I have attempted to explan things in "simple" terms so please keep that in mind. I realize ceratin mechanics have been omited/simplified.

In closing remember YOU USE BOOST PRESSURE TO CONTROL BOOST PRESSURE via the wga. Its as simple as that
__________________
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life."

04 Cobra Terminator 514rwhp/509tq
Mods: SC ported, 2Lbs Lower - UPR 2.80 w/Billetflow 4 pc idlers, BAP, MAF, Borla Stinger CB, K&N FIPK, MGW Shifter, predator tune(+12% fuel/-20 % timing)
Romans8:28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 09-02-2004, 12:37 PM   #2 (permalink)
SRTforums Member
 
Remax Realtor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Member Number: 3827
Trader Rating: (53)
Posts: 6,151
Default

good write up. i always see people using a wga with no boost controller. one guy who made that post earlier said he was boosting 18 psi with no boost controller! Thats when your flapper arm on the manifold will bend like a wet noodle. I learned that from experience.
__________________
www.octabong.com Best beer bong in the world.

2003 srt-4 *totaled*

2001 neon r/t with srt swap *sold*

2009 dodge caliber srt-4
Remax Realtor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2004, 12:38 PM   #3 (permalink)
Supporting Vendor (Gold)
 
Ben@AGP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Member Number: 333
Location: Arizona
Trader Rating: (92)
Posts: 6,239
Lifetime Premium Member
Default

Everything is very well explained except I would add one thing. Turbine backpressure also has an affect on when the flapper arm opens. Great writeup.
__________________
NHRA Pro Stock Motorcycle - Kenny Van Buren

Come see AGP Turbo at NHRA Full Throttle events.
Ben@AGP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2004, 02:27 PM   #4 (permalink)
SRTforums Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Member Number: 4517
Location: Rochester, NY
Trader Rating: (0)
Posts: 1,379
Default

Quote: Originally Posted by Romans8:28
I figured I would start a thread to help the endless stream of guys who are asking questions basic about these devices (either in tandom or by themselves)

Ha! Good luck with that...




The only addition I would make is that a bleed CAN be easily adjustable. A lot of electronic or factory boost controllers use solenoids as bleeds, and you can set up a MBC as a bleed, if you want. All you're doing is adjusting how much air bleeds off.
Narcisse91 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2004, 02:46 PM   #5 (permalink)
SRTforums Member
 
Romans8:28's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Member Number: 12264
Location: Gods Country
Trader Rating: (4)
Posts: 4,527
Default

Thanks for all the good comments guys, I concurr with whats been added. I struggled with exactly what all to say (and not to say LOL).


Maybe as other add onto the thread we will have a good reference for the srt4 community

Sometimes the basics can go a long way in helping alot of people out
Romans8:28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2004, 02:53 PM   #6 (permalink)
SRTforums Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Member Number: 1010
Location: Champaign, IL
Trader Rating: (13)
Posts: 2,488
Default

With a WGA you get PTB what is a safe/ cheap way to have enough fuel? I know with PTB your EGT's go way up and can hurt the car... what do you need to boost safely? and are the EGT's guages that you can buy accurate?
gtup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2004, 03:08 PM   #7 (permalink)
SRTforums Member
 
shosterman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Member Number: 2964
Location: Columbus, OH
Trader Rating: (0)
Posts: 97
Default

I could really use some help with some problems I'm having. The symptoms sound similar to boost issues you covered in your writeup.

For almost 2 months my Stage was working perfectly. Great boost, great accelleration, and the toys were all working as specified. Then over the course of a few days, things started to deteriorate. My car started boosting above the 20 mark and the dial-a-boost levels I had become used to changed. Where setting 0 was originally 9-10 PSI, it was now 14-15. Setting '1' had also raised to 18-20 where it was originally 15-16. Setting '2' or '3' were spiking past 20 and the needle fluctuated something fierce.

Pretty soon, none of my settings were working and to put it simply, I had to be careful with my right foot. WOT would shoot the needle straight down. (25+ PSI?) Also I had the trouble where my pink line on the WGA would pop off. I finally got that held down tight and upon the next spike I had another hose pop off and I lost much of my braking.

I have since changed back to the original Wastegate thinking that was the problem. It no longer boosts past 18, which I assume is because the stock one isn't strong enough.

I'm at a loss for what to check next. Calls to the Mopar helpline haven't helped and I haven't had time to take it to the dealer, I need the car as a daily driver.
__________________

2004 Black SRT-4
13.8@102
SRTOC: #447
shosterman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2004, 03:16 PM   #8 (permalink)
SRTforums Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Member Number: 4517
Location: Rochester, NY
Trader Rating: (0)
Posts: 1,379
Default

Quote: Originally Posted by gtup
With a WGA you get PTB what is a safe/ cheap way to have enough fuel? I know with PTB your EGT's go way up and can hurt the car... what do you need to boost safely? and are the EGT's guages that you can buy accurate?

The other thread you started you were told to get fuel management, and you mentioned the power paq and e-manage. What is wrong with those two?
Narcisse91 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2004, 03:21 PM   #9 (permalink)
SRTforums Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Member Number: 1010
Location: Champaign, IL
Trader Rating: (13)
Posts: 2,488
Default

somebody said that powerpaq wouldnt help.... or is that false? Will the PP help make safe A/F and EGT's?
gtup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2004, 03:24 PM   #10 (permalink)
SRTforums Member
 
MikeCandler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Member Number: 5521
Location: London Ontario
Trader Rating: (52)
Posts: 4,241
Default

Quote: Originally Posted by gtup
somebody said that powerpaq wouldnt help.... or is that false? Will the PP help make safe A/F and EGT's?

Yes it will! look in the psi-fi section they explain how they add fuel and take away fuel in every situation.
__________________
2007 Subaru WRX stock with some Buschur Racing parts
MikeCandler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2004, 04:02 PM   #11 (permalink)
SRTforums Member
 
SyVoL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Member Number: 8834
Location: Richmond VA
Trader Rating: (1)
Posts: 564
Default

sooo... If I have Stage 1 and put on a TCC WGA w/ #16 spring in it... I should, at the very least, run a MBC? or will Stage 1 be sufficient to eefectively control boost?
SyVoL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2004, 04:06 PM   #12 (permalink)
SRTforums Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Member Number: 1010
Location: Champaign, IL
Trader Rating: (13)
Posts: 2,488
Default

are aftermarket EGT gauges accurate?
gtup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2004, 04:09 PM   #13 (permalink)
SRTforums Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Member Number: 10097
Location: Boston
Trader Rating: (31)
Posts: 7,944
Default

Its wierd sometimes people would rather to use the WGA and no MBC to run the car and there happy...hell I tried using a TXS MBC and had terrible results
__________________
Ultimateone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2004, 04:11 PM   #14 (permalink)
SRTforums Member
 
Romans8:28's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Member Number: 12264
Location: Gods Country
Trader Rating: (4)
Posts: 4,527
Default

Quote: Originally Posted by shosterman
I could really use some help with some problems I'm having. The symptoms sound similar to boost issues you covered in your writeup.

For almost 2 months my Stage was working perfectly. Great boost, great accelleration, and the toys were all working as specified. Then over the course of a few days, things started to deteriorate. My car started boosting above the 20 mark and the dial-a-boost levels I had become used to changed. Where setting 0 was originally 9-10 PSI, it was now 14-15. Setting '1' had also raised to 18-20 where it was originally 15-16. Setting '2' or '3' were spiking past 20 and the needle fluctuated something fierce.

Pretty soon, none of my settings were working and to put it simply, I had to be careful with my right foot. WOT would shoot the needle straight down. (25+ PSI?) Also I had the trouble where my pink line on the WGA would pop off. I finally got that held down tight and upon the next spike I had another hose pop off and I lost much of my braking.

I have since changed back to the original Wastegate thinking that was the problem. It no longer boosts past 18, which I assume is because the stock one isn't strong enough.

I'm at a loss for what to check next. Calls to the Mopar helpline haven't helped and I haven't had time to take it to the dealer, I need the car as a daily driver.

It sounds like to me that little or even none of the boost pressure is actually reaching your wga. Perhaps a hose is broken, disconnected or leaking very badly. Trace down the pressure source from the wga back to your turbo and verify all the hoses are intact.
Romans8:28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2004, 04:15 PM   #15 (permalink)
SRTforums Member
 
Romans8:28's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Member Number: 12264
Location: Gods Country
Trader Rating: (4)
Posts: 4,527
Default

Quote: Originally Posted by Ultimateone
Its wierd sometimes people would rather to use the WGA and no MBC to run the car and there happy...hell I tried using a TXS MBC and had terrible results

Keeping it hooked up to the pcm control (solenoid #2) is much better than that approach. No MBC or bleed = a constant opening/attempted opening of the wastegate.

I would think a car with no MBC or bleed with the pcm bypassed would spool much slower than one setup correctly
Romans8:28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Register Home Forum Photo Gallery Active Topics (D) Chat Mark Forums Read
  SRT Forums - SRT4, SRT6, SRT8, SRT10 & Dodge Forum > SRT-4 Technical Discussion > Performance Modifications




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

» Wheel & Tire Center

Sponsors

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.0 RC2

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:05 AM.

(C) SRTforums.com
Page generated in 0.32382 seconds with 13 queries

Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.1.0