BFMIC and HKS BOV install problems after install - Dodge SRT Forum
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post #1 of 43 (permalink) Old 04-28-2017, 04:17 PM Thread Starter
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BFMIC and HKS BOV install problems after install

Hello to all and I hope that this is the right section for this post!

Before starting too much, this car is an SXT swap with what would appear to be MOST of the components required for the swap mechanically. The car does have check engine light ON, with codes P0420, i know it doesnt have a cat tho lol. I used to get code P0440 but somehow that has gone away. At the time of receiving the car it was only running 5lbs of boost with a leak to the boost gauge, the dealer didn't know what he was dealing with, but she looked clean to me! The idle also sits at about 600 rpms after warmed up.

I have come across several issues after installing my BFMIC and HKS style BOV. First I will give you guys a general over view of what I am running on the car. I am attempting to get the car to 17lbs of boost. Even before installing the larger intercooler, and the WGA nut tightened(more or less), the car would only go up to 15lbs of boost. It specifically would stop at 15lbs, if I tightened it too much it would cutout. Loosen it, back to 15lbs. During 4th gear WOT pulls, the car would hesitate before going balls to the walls. I have only ever seen it fully pressurize and hit 17 pounds MAYBE on 2 random pulls.

MODS:
Forward Motion Wastegate
Stock PCM masculine
Stock Turbo
04 stage 0 injectors
HKS style BOV with BOP on turbo
Glowshift Boost Gauge
Oil Catch Can ( Sometimes it is on or off I feel like it negatively effects my cars performance, possibly the can is faulty)
Spark Plugs are gapped between .030-.035 (kept going up to .04 if I only ran it at .035)
Compression tested all 4 cylinders at 151
Radiator compression tested 100%
No Tuner or Wideband at this time haters may say this is required but why would the car suddenly just run like garbage?

BFMIC Install:
The install went successful as far as getting the intercooler and pipe on the car. For the first few weeks the car was running ok, not any better than it was before even though I had made the piping route to the intake shorter, and deleted a lot of vacuum lines.

Vacuum Lines:
WGA to Turbo
Bottom of Turbo capped off
Line from PPS goes into the T with check valve on the top and the other end. The top of check valve is capped.
The other side of the check valve goes to the TB
There is a T just after the check valve that goes to the BOV
The only lines connected to the solenoids is the red one going to the cold pipe, and the TIP sensor
ALL other solenoids are uncapped and venting to atmosphere
The CAI that had a vacuum line to it is capped

Brake Booster:
The brake booster is connected to the port on the intake manifold and also the boost gauge. The line that should be on the top of the green nipple for the heater control system is missing and not coming through the firewall near the HVAC I have capped the green nipple off, is this ok?
The 2 lines coming from the hvac seem to be routed correctly going to the radiator and the line behind the turbo.

At the first of the install of the BFMIC the air sensor kept popping out of the grommet, the red vac line would pop off, the cold hard pipe kept coming off the intercooler or the throttle body. I got some silicone self adhering tape to use as a conduit on the steel and the silicone couplers. Got a deep socket to really tighten the heck out of the T clamps and now all the piping stays on securely and is not coming off. But now that I have the entire system sealed, something isnt right.

Now the car is not running very well. It turns on just fine and seems to idle like normal, but the sound almost seems different. There just isnt a good feel about the car now. The vacuum pressure shifting to neutral dips down to -24 hgi like normal, but it seems to hang there for a lot longer than it used to, the car bogs down when trying to let off the gas at 2000 rpms, as if theres TONS of pressure just trying to tell the damn throttle plate to let me in!

Any help would be amazing, at this point i have tried about 12 different times to figure out what is going on and almost to the point of tears in frustration!

2003 SRT4 Swap, awaiting further info!! Cannot yet post, sorry for lack of info, was going to add more but cant post!
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post #2 of 43 (permalink) Old 04-28-2017, 09:04 PM
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Lemme give this a shot; my thoughts in Blue.

Tightening the WG screw will only work so much because of the spring internal to it and the way you have the line connected to the turbo. Plus you are on a stock PCM and injectors, you cannot just crank up the 'boost', the PCM will try all sorts of stuff to prevent over boosting, like pulling timing and add fuel to protect the engine.
So a tune IS Needed for your goal of over 15 PSI to be safe. Not hating, just stating fact, you are going to damage the engine without a tune. Also the Wideband is referenced to ensure that your AFR in a safe range for the PSI number.
This is a swap like you said, so the question is, did you go through the whole system to make sure everything was done correctly before you decided you wanted more boost?
Sounds like your vacuum/boost lines need to be checked too. I would start with the catch can because you said it affects performance, the only way it would is if it is hooked up wrong and without a check valve, causing a boost leak.
Another FYI, 15 PSI is the average for a 'stock' system like you said you have. As you did not mention a MAP or TIP upgrade to 3BAR, which BTW you will need that tune you say is for Haterz and not needed.
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Last edited by HybridKid; 04-28-2017 at 09:07 PM.
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post #3 of 43 (permalink) Old 04-28-2017, 11:47 PM Thread Starter
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I will try and attempt to bring it back towards the stock settings with the vacuum lines and also put the stock wastegate back on the car, hopefully that will help some of my issues. I will have to come back to trying to add more boost after I get the tuner and wideband going. Money has me on the ropes with that but summer hours are starting and I am very set on getting this car in order!

Thank you and I will keep you posted.

Any other help appreciated!

2003 SRT4 Swap, awaiting further info!! Cannot yet post, sorry for lack of info, was going to add more but cant post!
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post #4 of 43 (permalink) Old 04-30-2017, 01:40 PM Thread Starter
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Update:

The problem seemed to be corrected when i capped off all 3 male fittings on the solenoid 3, I guess having them uncapped created a leak in the system?

Now then, I had the forward motion wastegate hooked up to PCM controlled boost, basicly putting solenoid 2 back to stock vac setup. It seemed to work ok at first, but I was told this would give me PTB and eventually kill my turbo. I could agree with that, as I was noticing a heavy amount of PTB in 2nd and 3rd gear.

Here is where my next problem isWith deleting solenoid 2 and running the turbo to the wastegate, it did remove most PTB, but created some issues when going WOT at various amounts of RPMS through the gears. Sometimes the car hauls so much ass I need to position myself in the drivers seat for the pull, other times the car seems to gear up for the run and craps out, doesnt fully spool, ill get a backfire, anything but going like a rocket out of hell.

The BOV also seems to react a lot differently when I hook the turbo to the wastegate, it seems to make a solid ping sometimes, other times its not quite enough pressure to ping so it goes "chh" other times it will flutter. Is this an all or nothing kind of thing like Im either going balls to the walls or shift normally?

2003 SRT4 Swap, awaiting further info!! Cannot yet post, sorry for lack of info, was going to add more but cant post!
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post #5 of 43 (permalink) Old 04-30-2017, 03:04 PM
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Start over from the beginning and hook up the vacuum/boost lines the way they are in this diagram. Do not worry about Part Throttle Boost for now. Get everything working correctly before moving on.
Too long to go into but again the spring in the wastegate will NOT provide consistent pressures when the WG is hooked directly to the turbo (Green line).
Make sure the check valves that are supposed to be in the system to protect the brake booster and stop pressurizing the crankcase through the PCV, are hooked up correctly and present. NO Boost to the booster or crank case.
Check the block off plate to stock surge/bov for leaks. Also check your whole system when done for leaks.
Take the Blue line for the surge valve solenoid and cap it, hook the Black line to the HKS BOV port. Since the spring rating of the HKS is unknown, do not run a check valve in the line, so it has Both vacuum and Boost. Notice that it is Between the throttle body and intake.
IT IS VERY IMPORTANT THAT YOU HAVE NO BOOST OR VACUUM LEAKS IN THE SYSTEM BETWEEN THE TURBO OUTLET AND THE PORTS ON THE HEAD.
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post #6 of 43 (permalink) Old 04-30-2017, 09:32 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HybridKid View Post
Start over from the beginning and hook up the vacuum/boost lines the way they are in this diagram. Do not worry about Part Throttle Boost for now. Get everything working correctly before moving on.
Too long to go into but again the spring in the wastegate will NOT provide consistent pressures when the WG is hooked directly to the turbo (Green line).
Make sure the check valves that are supposed to be in the system to protect the brake booster and stop pressurizing the crankcase through the PCV, are hooked up correctly and present. NO Boost to the booster or crank case.
Check the block off plate to stock surge/bov for leaks. Also check your whole system when done for leaks.
Take the Blue line for the surge valve solenoid and cap it, hook the Black line to the HKS BOV port. Since the spring rating of the HKS is unknown, do not run a check valve in the line, so it has Both vacuum and Boost. Notice that it is Between the throttle body and intake.
IT IS VERY IMPORTANT THAT YOU HAVE NO BOOST OR VACUUM LEAKS IN THE SYSTEM BETWEEN THE TURBO OUTLET AND THE PORTS ON THE HEAD.

I have seen this picture before but up until now have not even thought about this. The green line for the turbo that connects to solenoid 2, if you the turbo is on the car is it connecting to the nipple on the back of the turbo, or on the bottom of the turbo? I have been connecting it to the back of the turbo where it is hard to reach and you cannot see the nipple. Should I have been connecting it to the bottom of the nipple this entire time? The picture would lead me to believe i have been wrong this entire time.

Also that diagram doesn't show where the line coming from the PPS T's from and where to put the check valve, and there after to put a T for the BOV lol, this information is so scattered its kind of ridiculous.

This is how my lines are setup, http://www.srtconnection.com/forums/...-flutter-5653/

Now the only issue I am having is hooking the turbo to the wastegate, which again by the picture possibly i am plugging it into the wrong hole. again with the turbo on the car and the wastegate in front of the turbo, do i go around to the back to connect the wastegate or plug the wastegate into the hole below the air intake connection?

This image here shows that that picture is wrong and the green line goes to the backside line i have been doing this entire time
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=...93697857605457

2003 SRT4 Swap, awaiting further info!! Cannot yet post, sorry for lack of info, was going to add more but cant post!

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post #7 of 43 (permalink) Old 05-01-2017, 08:19 AM
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There is another diagram I have seen here but cannot locate it right now but to answer your questions, see below in Blue. Also make sure the electrical connectors to the solenoids are to the correct solenoid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xer0cool View Post
I have seen this picture before but up until now have not even thought about this. The green line for the turbo that connects to solenoid 2, if you the turbo is on the car is it connecting to the nipple on the back of the turbo, or on the bottom of the turbo? Connects to the 'front' the outlet of the turbo. I have been connecting it to the back of the turbo where it is hard to reach and you cannot see the nipple. Should I have been connecting it to the bottom of the nipple this entire time? Yes. The picture would lead me to believe i have been wrong this entire time.

Also that diagram doesn't show where the line coming from the PPS T's from and where to put the check valve, and there after to put a T for the BOV lol, this information is so scattered its kind of ridiculous. That is why I said the BOV does not need to see boost, it helps though to help keep it shut under boost if the spring is weak. Notice the / in the Black line to the bottom port.

This is how my lines are setup, HOW-TO: Get rid of the Stock BOV flutter - Dodge SRT Forum - SRTConnection

Now the only issue I am having is hooking the turbo to the wastegate, which again by the picture possibly i am plugging it into the wrong hole. again with the turbo on the car and the wastegate in front of the turbo, do i go around to the back to connect the wastegate or plug the wastegate into the hole below the air intake connection? Stock WG there is only 1 port. You have to think of it like this, that port is to see only boost to overcome spring tension and opens the WG flapper to bleed off exhaust gases and slow the turbo down. If you hook directly to the turbo (bypassing the Solenoid) where the Green line should be, you will only get PSI based on the spring in the WG. There is No control then, worst than hooking up a manual boost controller.

This image here shows that that picture is wrong and the green line goes to the backside line i have been doing this entire time Maybe these will help.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=...93697857605457
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post #8 of 43 (permalink) Old 05-02-2017, 05:10 AM Thread Starter
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I may have a chance to get a wideband and tuner finally I am wondering if my wideband says my AFR's are all out of whack would that have been my issue the entire time? also, I am nervous to spend the money on the wideband and tuner before fixing the problem, although at this point for all I know the problem alone is fuel and tune related given it being a turbo swap? It would appear and seem that the connections for the setup are correct, and you have given me more understanding of the vacuum/boost side of the diagram and components. Thank you again for helping with this, and I hope to figure it out soon as I really would love to continue increasing the horsepower! At this point, I can take everything but the turbo and turbo manfold off the car in under 10 minutes, lol, I want to get into this damn car!!!

2003 SRT4 Swap, awaiting further info!! Cannot yet post, sorry for lack of info, was going to add more but cant post!
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post #9 of 43 (permalink) Old 05-02-2017, 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Xer0cool View Post
I may have a chance to get a wideband and tuner finally I am wondering if my wideband says my AFR's are all out of whack would that have been my issue the entire time? You need the wideband before the tune. Use that to get the car running stock before looking for a tune. Plus you cannot be 100% sure that there is not already a tune on this PCM because of the unknown history. also, I am nervous to spend the money on the wideband and tuner before fixing the problem, although at this point for all I know the problem alone is fuel and tune related given it being a turbo swap? Install the wideband first, figure out a way to check the fuel pressure too. It would appear and seem that the connections for the setup are correct, and you have given me more understanding of the vacuum/boost side of the diagram and components. If it was me, I would be going through the whole car like it was me doing the swap, even pulling and checking the harness to ensure all the pins were there for a SRT4.
Thank you again for helping with this, and I hope to figure it out soon as I really would love to continue increasing the horsepower! Be Patient, if you aren't and blow up the engine you will certainly regret it. Again, hook everything to stock specs, install a wideband and fuel pressure gauge so you can know what is happening and not be guessing. At this point, I can take everything but the turbo and turbo manfold off the car in under 10 minutes, lol, I want to get into this damn car!!! Be Patient, it will cost more if you blow up the car.
Take a look at my comments in Blue. I think you are going about this the impatient way and this being a swap, it adds a lot of unknown pitfalls that a straight up abused SRT4 would not.
Download the Factory Service Manual, you need that for a lot of things going forward. 'atroph' has it in his signature on here.
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post #10 of 43 (permalink) Old 05-02-2017, 01:10 PM Thread Starter
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Ok I will give the service manual a download and also get a fuel pressure regulator to see how i am doing on the fuel side of things. I will take it easy on the car until I figure out what's going on with it. Looks like I have a lot more work to do than i thought!
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2003 SRT4 Swap, awaiting further info!! Cannot yet post, sorry for lack of info, was going to add more but cant post!
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Putting vacuum line questions aside for a second. What would cause my throttle response to be so dramatic in bogging down when i shift to neutral from around 2000 rpms? It's almost as if the car is receiving TOO much vacuum pressure. Would this be related to the vacuum lines or does that mostly pertain to boosting? A good example of what is going on is if you were to start breathing out with your hand against your fist against your lips and then suddenly remove it, that release in pressure is what it feels like is happening when i left off the throttle, like the car is able to finally breath or something?

The issue again almost seems beyond just the vacuum lines at this point, and now that I have blocked off the turbo and it is directly flowing to the throttle body, I am wondering if the BOV spring is too tight, or the hard pipe from the turbo to the intercooler i have found has a good half inch dent in the pipe, which i would imagine would restrict some air flow, but not play such a huge role on my throttle response.

so many questions but they all seem to be point to too much either back pressure or some type of pressure on the throttle body which is hindering the flow of air to the engine.

2003 SRT4 Swap, awaiting further info!! Cannot yet post, sorry for lack of info, was going to add more but cant post!
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post #12 of 43 (permalink) Old 05-02-2017, 02:46 PM
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Clarification please...................
What do you mean by shifting to neutral from 2000? From what gear? Compression braking?
Blocked off the turbo!? Thought you were going to work on getting everything back to stock?
Not to be mean, but do you have any idea about a gasoline engine car? Or what a turbo or supercharger does?
What is the vacuum reading at idle?
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My answers in blue
Clarification please...................
What do you mean by shifting to neutral from 2000? From what gear? Compression braking?Taking my foot off the gas and clutch shifting back to neutral
Blocked off the turbo!? Thought you were going to work on getting everything back to stock? I do not have the stock surge valve anymore
Not to be mean, but do you have any idea about a gasoline engine car? Or what a turbo or supercharger does?Uhhh
What is the vacuum reading at idle?Vacuum pressure seems to hang around -23 at first shift into idle and more recently takes its sweet ass time to go back to -20

By asking what a gasoline engine does my understanding that airflow is required into the combustion chamber with gasoline which the spark plugs use to ignite a specified amount of fuel to create the most exhaust pressure to be converted by the pistons into energy? Adding a turbo into the equation creates a vast amount more airflow, therefore requiring more gasoline to work properly.

2003 SRT4 Swap, awaiting further info!! Cannot yet post, sorry for lack of info, was going to add more but cant post!
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post #14 of 43 (permalink) Old 05-02-2017, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Xer0cool View Post
My answers in blue
Clarification please...................
What do you mean by shifting to neutral from 2000? From what gear? Compression braking?Taking my foot off the gas and clutch shifting back to neutral
Blocked off the turbo!? Thought you were going to work on getting everything back to stock? I do not have the stock surge valve anymore
Not to be mean, but do you have any idea about a gasoline engine car? Or what a turbo or supercharger does?Uhhh
What is the vacuum reading at idle?Vacuum pressure seems to hang around -23 at first shift into idle and more recently takes its sweet ass time to go back to -20

By asking what a gasoline engine does my understanding that airflow is required into the combustion chamber with gasoline which the spark plugs use to ignite a specified amount of fuel to create the most exhaust pressure to be converted by the pistons into energy? Adding a turbo into the equation creates a vast amount more airflow, therefore requiring more gasoline to work properly.
Yah, BUT you are confusing yourself and me with how you are explaining and trying to diagnose your issues.
Vacuum at idle with the engine at temp for a stock car is usually somewhere around -20 without any vacuum leaks. Just sitting there and NOT moving/driving. This is basic for most combustion engines.
So cruising down the road say in 2nd gear, pushing the clutch and putting it in neutral and let the car keep rolling? If so then you are having a vacuum leak, a fuel delivery, TPS or some issue there of. The car doesn't know what to do as something is off.
What does not having the stock surge valve have to do with "blocking off the turbo"?
You probably have a leak, something hooked up wrong or sensor issue.
Need to check for boost and vacuum leaks and for Trouble Codes from the PCM/Computer.
Troubleshoot -20 to 0 (Not going into boost) leave the turbo out of this issue.

If you know this;
By asking what a gasoline engine does my understanding that airflow is required into the combustion chamber with gasoline which the spark plugs use to ignite a specified amount of fuel to create the most exhaust pressure to be converted by the pistons into energy? Adding a turbo into the equation creates a vast amount more airflow, therefore requiring more gasoline to work properly.
Why say this;
It's almost as if the car is receiving TOO much vacuum pressure. Would this be related to the vacuum lines or does that mostly pertain to boosting? A good example of what is going on is if you were to start breathing out with your hand against your fist against your lips and then suddenly remove it, that release in pressure is what it feels like is happening when i left off the throttle, like the car is able to finally breath or something?

The issue again almost seems beyond just the vacuum lines at this point, and now that I have blocked off the turbo and it is directly flowing to the throttle body, I am wondering if the BOV spring is too tight, or the hard pipe from the turbo to the intercooler i have found has a good half inch dent in the pipe, which i would imagine would restrict some air flow, but not play such a huge role on my throttle response.

so many questions but they all seem to be point to too much either back pressure or some type of pressure on the throttle body which is hindering the flow of air to the engine.
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post #15 of 43 (permalink) Old 05-02-2017, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xer0cool View Post
Putting vacuum line questions aside for a second. What would cause my throttle response to be so dramatic in bogging down when i shift to neutral from around 2000 rpms? It's almost as if the car is receiving TOO much vacuum pressure. Would this be related to the vacuum lines or does that mostly pertain to boosting? A good example of what is going on is if you were to start breathing out with your hand against your fist against your lips and then suddenly remove it, that release in pressure is what it feels like is happening when i left off the throttle, like the car is able to finally breath or something?

The issue again almost seems beyond just the vacuum lines at this point, and now that I have blocked off the turbo and it is directly flowing to the throttle body, I am wondering if the BOV spring is too tight, or the hard pipe from the turbo to the intercooler i have found has a good half inch dent in the pipe, which i would imagine would restrict some air flow, but not play such a huge role on my throttle response.

so many questions but they all seem to be point to too much either back pressure or some type of pressure on the throttle body which is hindering the flow of air to the engine.
Woah. Lets back up a few steps.

Stock pcm boost spike will be a 13-15 spike depending on weather conditions. It will drop down and hold 10-12 also depending on weather conditions. In stock form you will not hold more.

Before your mods the car was boosting correctly. By changing or eliminating vacuum lines you have told the pcm YOU will control boost. The easiest way to accomplish what you're trying to do would be to purchase a DSP and reconnect everything back to stock. No need for blowoff,Bfmic, 3rd party wastegate.

The bogging you are experiencing is a result of taking the engine from no load to full load in the next instance. This is very bad for turbo vehicles and typical of 4th gear pulls at a low rpm.




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