I know I'm going to regret asking this question... I am looking for constructive ideas and solutions. If you can't provide that, please don't bother replying.
It was pointed out after the banquet that it is somewhat unfair for participants to compete in class with vendors/sponsors in timed and judged events, like the carshow, drag races, and autox.
I can see both sides of this issue very clearly, so it's not important to try to state a case why they should, or should not compete in class.
What are possible ideas and solutions, ranging from "Not a Problem" to "All Vendors/Sponsor entered vehicles are Exhibition Only" including the middle ground that I am hoping we will find?
The results of this thread will not 'make the new policy' but will influence the decision.
The thread might evolve into a 'what if' discussion, which is okay, but bashing Carbon By Design because a car entered by a paid participant is sponsored by them and they parked it in their booth and it won the carshow, or similar Drag Race or Autox tales will be avoided.
Please keep things civil, and let's figure it out now, for next year.
Thanks,
Dale
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This is a very tough situation , but many of the Vendors are SRT owners and they come to participate , display their wares , just like everyone else.It is important for many of them to showcase what their products do and competing is the icing on the cake.
I know in other venues , when Vendors/Sponsors participate it is a prime selling tool for them to get folks to buy their products or knowledge. Amazingly these are usually the more successful folks too, as gearheads want to buy from those that back their products with results.
We have participated in Viper Days at all the Viper Owners Invitationals ( besides the actual racing season ), the SRT Nationals , and various other car events ( we have 5 different stores ) and it has helped us illustrate our talents in car set-up , modifications, etc.
The successes over the years have led us to want to sponsor more performance based functions, and frankly we have seen the non-active sponsors come and go, while we still seem to be around.
Interestingly, S&P Racing approached me , as the Viper I drive had some overheating issues, and asked me to drive their ACR to see if the setup they were working was effective. I go to participate and without my ride I jumped at the chance. Having not ever driven an ACR on an Autocross course but two laps ( about 9 months ago ), and as I stopped competing in SCCA autocrosses almost 5 years ago, I think the results of the event showed that S&P Racing had figured out the set-up very well.
Considering the fact that folks were asking James ( S&P Racing's owner), after the event what he had done to his car, any alignment changes, tire pressure, he deemed the win as a sales succcess.
I do believe this enhances benefits for all, as sponsors who get down and dirty with their customers are the grassroots kind of support and participation the type of folks that run these SRT beasts want --- IMHO.
I guess I look at it from the side of an enthusiast that pays for all my parts, pays to make my car faster, and has to learn how to drive better. I would be saddened to know I could not compete because I am also a Vendor. I know how it feels to get a lower placing at Nationals because of what you’re talking about. Last year Erich won the autox and this year Bill did, both years that put me further down in the standings, but I am happy they did even if that meant I didn't get first. If we limit who and what car can compete where will it stop? What is considered a sponsored car? Who is considered a pro driver? In 2005 SRT took top honors in everything but the dyno, and for me that was awesome to see. I was glad to see the guys who spent so much time making our cars what they are can also come out and enjoy and compete as enthusiasts. If you want to compete with the big dogs you have to be prepared, and there are plenty of private owners with more parts and better cars than some of the vendors cars.
Randy
I honestly don't mind the vendors being in the events. Heck, Bill could have drove my car and killed everyone in the autocross even worse. The only complaint I really had was the classes in autocross were messed up, but I'm sure that's easily fixable next year.
My personal thoughts on the question, but certainly not a decision....
Vendor participation is very important to the event, especially this past year, but most likely just as important next year. Participation goes beyond the money paid to display, it's also about becoming, or remaining a part of the community by taking part in the activities.
One of the suggestions made on Saturday night was pretty good. An optional 'Pro' class in the carshow might work out. People who would like to compete there would simply let the judges know, and they would be judged against all of the other 'Pro' entrants in one class. It would be the same judging sheet, so scores could be compared later, but vehicles like the Kicker show cars could participate without annoying the mere mortals like myself.
In the autox, I can't see a way to separate the 'Pro' from the amatuer. The whole point of autox at a regional level is to promote improvement of the driver by comparing them to the best in the region. Besides, I enjoyed having Mark Daddio turn fast time of day in my car at Divisional events while I was running almost dead last with the exact same setup in the same car. I think that most autoxers feel this way, but I'd still like to read your thoughts.
The Drag Race is a big question though, because I'm not very knowledgable about it. The FWD Performance 4 Cylinder cars are pretty dominant, but then again, that's the whole point of racing. Stephane and Darrel moved themselves to Exhibition, but is that because they really are Pro, or because they knew that they needed to be in a different group? What causes that line to be drawn? The Stramer car is a beautiful example of a well built, purpose built car. It was flying FWD Performance banners, was entered as one of their vendor vehicles (although it wasn't displayed in the vendor area), and it would have been a shame to have it not making competition passes. Setting up a single "Pro" class doesn't make sense, even to me, but what is the option? Possibly rename the 'Slick Tire' classes "Pro" and allow slick tires there? 'Amatuers' could choose to run street tires, or step up to the slicks...
There's the dilemma in my thinking... How can there be a difference between show car and drag car classing structure? Or, would it actually make sense to have an optional Pro class in the show, and not offer it in the drag racing?
I've specifically mentioned FWD Performance here so that I can get the point of view of Cindy Lindsey, either in the thread or by PM, because she participated in the event as all three, a Vendor, a Sponsor, and Participant. Not many people knew that, so it allows me to mention it without appearing to be too much of a suckup
I realize that people weren't horribly disappointed with the way things did go, but there is always room for improvement, and we have a lot of room, and the ability to do anything we want to improve.
I agree with randy on his views. With the drag racing event I think you had it setup just fine. The only problem I can see with the high powered pro guys is when racing for the quick 8 section. A car that runs 10's going up against a car that runs 12's and higher(what most of the srts did) there really is no chance at competing. Well your hoping them to redlight, but what I saw some of them doing was sleeping on the line a bit. Why? Because they knew there car was a good second to 2 more faster and didnt want to risk the redlight, but thats just IMO.
Bracket drag racing is the most equal opportunity sport in the world. Man and women, young or old, all have an equal chance. Anyone can win bracket racing, with any kind of car. ll you have to do is drive consistently. It makes no difference if you car is fast or slow, because the races are based on a system where the slower car gets a head start. You have regular running at first...or the day before like you had at nationals for people to get a feel for what there times would be. To seperate what class people are in I think you could classify them as whether or not they are a "Street Car" or not. This way you have the big dogs seperated from the rest.
Requirements to be considered a Street Car
Pass Safety Tech
Working windows
Door slammer
Operational headlights, brake lights, tail lights
Nitrous permissible
Wheel tubs permissible
Glass Windshield
Trailered through gate permissible
D.O.T. tires ONLY
Line Locks permissible
Long pants and helmet
Thats all I can really think about right now to seperate. Really bracket racing is about both the driver and there car. Racing against someone who has a completly built car that they dont have to shift, etc is no fun. While I am trying to improve my driving the built car next to me just makes sure he gets a good reaction time and the car does the rest.
I don't think there's any reason vendors and sponsors should be excluded based on class. As long as their cars are within the class guide lines let them have at it. In fact some of the vendors/sponsors need to particiapte or they wont come.
It's important that we understand that we are not talking about excluding anyone, that would be very counter productive.
Is there a better classing system for the competitive events that participants and vendor/sponsors can give a thumps up on?
Kicker did not enter the carshow with the Crossfire because it would have been unfair to the Crossfires that did attend. Should there be a "Pro" class in the show? If so, who determines "Pro" from "Mortal"?
I just want to improve the event. I take the criticisms seriously, as requests for possible change, and suggestions.
Autox classing would have been better if someone who knew about classing was making determinations. The Registration people at the autox don't do that, it's up to the particpants to do that. Maybe next year, someone could help the participants class themselves...
I think it was fine the way it is. I am not sure if this started in part to my car. Just so everyone know it is not carbon by desgins car. It is owned by me a built by me. Any big car show you go to all cars are in classes no matter who owns them. As long as they fit in the class guidelines. I am not sure about the drag and autox. I think you did a great job Dale. Dont change a thing for next year we all had a great time.
I look at this situation in a few different ways. As both and enthusiast and a vendor I can appreciate both views. I most definately feel that any vendor should be able to participate in the events without being singled out.
Vendor status is no substitute for talent or taste, whichever happens to be in question. Many vendors have gone out of their way to produce vehicles in order to showcase their abilities and products, and it would be a shame not to let them compete in order to cater to an individual.
In the case of AutoX... would any of us believe that an ACR could get low 32's and even 31's? I wouldn't have, but it's in this achievement that we realize the potential of not only our vehicles, but in ourselves. I can tell you that I would not belong in any professional group by any stretch of the imagination, but I would tell you that I would strive to eventually make myself better to compete up to my cars and my own potential.
At an event like this, we are all enthusiasts first, and it surprises me that anyone questions that at all. For many, I can imagine if they had to make a choice between vendor and enthusiast, too many would choose enthusiast and you would soon lose the support that a large event such as this requires.
Vendors use events like this to put themselves and their products in the limelight, and if a choice was made to dim that in any way, then it would not attract as many vendors/sponsors in my opinion.
Isn't that why people are looking for sponsors? And sponsors require exposure. Would it be fair to limit entries to only the vehicles that have no sponsors, decals, etc?
If we were not witness to professional driving and professionally built vehicles, who would we aspire to be, and what would we aspire to do?
It's always best to surround yourself with the best, and often times you will get better by association. I learned so much by watching Bill pilot the ACR and seeing just what that car is capable of. Riding along made me really appreciate what these cars were built for and capable of. Now I have a goal.
Very well written and to the point. The Vendors , Sponsors, etc. that come to the event are enthusiasts too, and there is a reason Herb Helbig, Erich Heushele, Mitch Crawford, Ralph Gilles, Bob Woodhouse, Skip Sauls, Brian Smith, Scotty B. White, Cindi Lux, etc. come to these events. They all want to be part of the fun, participate, and show off their products ---whether it is a Corporate run in a brand new Jeep SRT8, or flying around the track in a World Challenge Car. Bringing everyone together on the same playing field is the simple pattern that will bring more growth for the event in the future.
Maybe you could have "purpose-built" vs. non-pb which is a little looser categorization than street-legal vs. non. I'm sure that Kicker Crossfire was streetable but it obviously was a show car first and foremost. I think PB could work for all three judged events. How to define "purpose-built" would be the trick. I think that would help to allow cars be judged regardless of ownership. It would be about evaluating the car and not the owner.
Yes it does seem unfair to the masses having a sponserd car in the car show or in any event. But hey how do you think small shops that run nascar, nhra, or even scca events feel?
They gun for that top seed and try to eleminate it.
It would be awsome to have a trophie for every event, but it doesn't always work out. You bring your A-game and have fun with it.
I wish people on this forum weren't always so defensive....
The question is not "How can we exclude vendors and sponsors?" That would be incredibly stupid, even for me.
The question is, "How can we encourage more participation from everyone that is at the event?"
I have a bunch of ideas, but the point is not to make the event into the image that I have of it, but instead the image that everyone has.
I don't find pain in criticism or other peoples ideas, all I see is opportunity for improvement through them.
But, I expect people will skim this message as well and see only the words 'exclude vendors and sponsors'
I suggest you offer up a pro class for the Big Dogs to slug it out in. But for the smaller vendors like James they should have the option to compete in the regular classes. A vendor who has a competative vehicle but not pro class level should compete with the regulars. For show car compairison, Pro - Wild -Mild - Stock
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Vendor/Sponsor Event Participation
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