I don't see my trans oil temps getting as high as rally, or anybody else's for that matter. Shifting might be less than desirable as well.
I only answered your exact questions. You hadn't said anything about shifting or temp yet. So yes, it's been tried successfully and yes, Modern's statement is authentic.
I have also heard from an SRT-4 World challenge crew chief that Mobil engine oil works well in the transmission. I personally am using Redline D4 ATF and have found the transmission to shift great so far.
I have tried a variety of fluids in my T850s. The worst fluid is the factory ATF+4. I then tried RP, and it was _ok_. Tried Pennzoil Syncromesh, and it was _ok_ (works absolutely awesome in a T56, BTW). Tried Mobil 1 5W30 (what we used in all of the 85-93 turbo DOdges), it was no good. Then tried Mobil 1 75W90 gear lube. This stuff is actually great in anything above 0°F. I found it a little stiff at -10°F. Next I tried Amsoil ATF. This is hands down the best that I have yet tested. The gear oil is a close 2nd. Nothing else comes even close.
I will try the 10W30 High Mileage this spring. The rationale seems sound (with the zinc additives). If you do not want to try that, the Amsoil is a natural choice.
I have tried a variety of fluids in my T850s. The worst fluid is the factory ATF+4. I then tried RP, and it was _ok_. Tried Pennzoil Syncromesh, and it was _ok_ (works absolutely awesome in a T56, BTW). Tried Mobil 1 5W30 (what we used in all of the 85-93 turbo DOdges), it was no good. Then tried Mobil 1 75W90 gear lube. This stuff is actually great in anything above 0°F. I found it a little stiff at -10°F. Next I tried Amsoil ATF. This is hands down the best that I have yet tested. The gear oil is a close 2nd. Nothing else comes even close.
I will try the 10W30 High Mileage this spring. The rationale seems sound (with the zinc additives). If you do not want to try that, the Amsoil is a natural choice.
so is this amsoil atf found anywhere?? i think i need to change tranny fluid if i still have stock junk??? but wait i did get warrenty work and should have been changed......i wonder what they put in it....but if the guy who has used "stock" atf for 75,000 miles....i should be good.....but i do beat on my car....every time i drive it lol
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old car-----98 ACR DOHC 5 speed, close ration tranny, w/ srt exhaust, afx ecu, 52mm tb, 3.0 CAI, solid front mount, flex sides, solid bobble strut, 65% sts by maddog, no p/s or a/c, my best 1/4 15.247 at 90.19
Getting PM's fromt he guy that uses it on neons.org:
Quote:
I would, and have said on other posts, that any oil with at least the correct amount of ZDDP and made from a quality base stock is going to work well as long as it is SL rated, Not SM. Darth has the reason for change from Sl to SM dead to nuts and the ZDDP levels match what I was told.
High mileage was suggested as the cheapest oil that has everything you need. Remember, a Chrysler Engineer(who likes not to have his name thrown around) who worked in the oil, R&D, and failure departments had it tested to be within 99% of the original mopar oils. Only drop in formulation is in sulphur, which is only needed on the brass synchros of early 1st gens, 95-96.5 as an antitarnish agent. It has a Slight rise in ZDDP, around .01%. ZDDP is added to create a shear resistant coating on bearings, gears and other high wear, high shear parts like cam lobes and transmission gears.
He has run it exclusively in all 20 of his race and road cars for motor and trans and when in charge of the Neon Racing effort from Mopar, suggested it exclusively. He also was the only one to make a stratus blocked SOHC headed neon cheater car for SCCA and Spec Neon racing.
I have run it in my transmissions for 25k and 15k miles respectively and close to 110k miles combined in my motors.
That is why I usually just recommend Mobil1 High Mileage 10w30 for its the most cost effective and has everything you need. However, Redline MTL, Amsoil, Royal Purple and other racing oils work well without any downfall except cost.
Basically any quality SL rated Oil with at least 1000ppm of ZDDP, synthetic base stock and a weight of 30 to 40 will work. Redline MTL is wieghted at 40, Amsoil's synchromax(IIRC) is 35, etc, etc.
NEVER EVER use any oil weighted higher than 40, it is too thick and will not get flung up on the passive oiling ramps to reach the shafts or synchros. Most gear oils for transmissions are in the 75-125 weight range.
Dave
Little Dragon Race Transmissions
Also take in mind these rally guys are changing their tranny fluid EVERY race I bet....
The question is, will it last for a year when its a motor oil thats supposed to last around 5k in a motor before you change it?
I can not comment on whether 10w30 or 10w40 engine oil is a good substitute or not as I have never used it nor do I know of anyone that has used it.
However, I would be real uneasy about taking the advice of someone that supposedly has data from a Chrysler engineer and starts spouting out ZDDP levels, but then goes on and makes a comment like this...
Quote: Originally Posted by Dave from Little Dragon Race Transmissions
NEVER EVER use any oil weighted higher than 40, it is too thick and will not get flung up on the passive oiling ramps to reach the shafts or synchros. Most gear oils for transmissions are in the 75-125 weight range.
Dave
Little Dragon Race Transmissions
If he knows so much about oils then he should know that the viscosity rating of gear oils can not be directly compared to the viscosity rating of an engine oil.
For example, (per Mobil1's website)...
Mobil1's high mileage 10w40 engine oil's actual viscosity is 98.16 cSt @ 40º C and 14.71 cSt @ 100º C .
Mobil1's 75w90 gear oil's actual viscosity is 106 cSt @ 40º C and 15.2 cSt @ 100º C
Now granted the gear oil is slightly thicker, but it is in no way, shape or form twice as thick as "Dave" implies above.
This tells me Dave really doesn't know much about oils so I would not take any advice he gives. But this is not to say the engine oil or gear oil is a bad choice. I just would not make the decision based on Dave from Little Dragon Race Transmissions. Do more research.
Yea my tranny is half-way to its death already so it can't really hurt anything. Im hoping it helps though. I want to get a Pwerks transmission, how is the stage 3?
i baught my car and the carlot took it to jiffy lube right before i picked it up. 1yr later turns out they put some kind of grear oil in there
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Yea my tranny is half-way to its death already so it can't really hurt anything. Im hoping it helps though. I want to get a Pwerks transmission, how is the stage 3?
Excellent fluid royal Purple, Its what I use in my power steering. If it wasn't so expensive I would run it everywhere.
Anyway on to the rebuttal, I guess I should just join already, lol. Darth seems actualy quite intelligent, he just can't get over his hatred of Mobil1. He has quite good questions as well.
The minimum of ZDDP in 1000ppm is due to the fact the transmissions gears constantly sync and ride together. You have metal on metal wear with zero bearing or bushing surface. The gear sets in the 1st gen are 8620 steel and a little softer and easier to wear. The 2nd gen uses 9310 steel, much harder and more wear resistant, but it is also more brittle at higher shock loads, 500hp range, no issues for a stock or even highly modded setup. You have to think with multiple contact points of metal on metal forcing your car down the road you are going to need some shear resitant coatings for the gear faces.
A stock SOHC has 129 crank torque. Using a 3.94R/t trans with the 3.50 1st gear you have 1778.91 ftlbs of torque being applied to the gear faces of the output shaft and ring gear. The minimum 1000ppm ZDDP is to help combat the shock load and shear as the gear faces engage with power applied. The new SM's ZDDP amounts are just to little to help combat the shear that happens as the gears first get engaged, and mash the small amount of space left in machining into metal on metal as the load is applied.
The longevity I was told is not an issue; there are no heat sources except the friction caused by the gears movements, no hydrocarbons being introduced into the oil from combustion and cylinder leakdown and no wear except of minor surface and synchro face, which are taken car of by the stock magnet(or better still a magnetic drain plug). It is a sealed system with only 1 vent to keep the case pressure from rising, and that vent is tiny. I still suggest a yearly change out as the synchro faces wear can cause some gunking up and possibly clogging of the oiling passages, but it is good for it. Post racing I can grab my trasnmission, My laser thermometer has never read over 150* on the case. Not so on any other engine component, my headers have been around 600* before. The bellhousing does take up some of the engines radiant heat, but being made of hypereutectic aluminum it can also dump that heat much more quickly than the block. Only on endurance racing would I worry about ading an oil cooler to combat oil breakdown due to heat.
Basically the major reason, besides a high up chrysler engineer telling me to, I suggest M1HM is the fact it is almost exactly the same as the mopar fluid at half the cost, you can use it in your engine, and we all usually have 1/2quart left after an oil change, saved up 4 times a year it is almost enough to do the transmission with. Not to be a jerk but, Cost, Cost, Cost. If 10 things do the exact same thing for you, have all the same features and warranties, all work excellently and all are from quality manufacters, people will almost always go with the cheapest. I.E. If nissan had made a silvia turbo here for the same price as the neon I'm sure many many more people would have bought it over the neon.
Thats my 2 cents
Dave
Little Dragon Racing Transmissions
I will send that information towards him Xxxx56
Yeah I wasn't convinced... I just ended up using Royal Purple Synchromax since I already had an extra quart laying around. I had to get another quart at the store... Came to $15.XX with tax. Ouch!
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