If you're haivng these issues then why not run a solenoid between the pump and the nozzle, then have the pump wired up to prime the system every time you start the car? SurFlo pumps do this automaticly. This is how I had my system and it would start spraying instantly(I could tell by the intake temps immediately dropping as soon as the LED came on showing that the solenoid was triggered).
So you'll ONLY have this problem IF you don't run a solenoid AND the pump only runs when you're in boost.
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yeah, this is why I was considering the HSV from aquimist. Basically, it's a fuel injector for water. So you could keep the pump running all the time at full pressure and use the HSV to control flow.
The valve would sit directly on top of the nozzle, so there'd be less than 1" of pipe to fill before spraying. That's damn near instant.
However, the damn valve costs $220!
If I were to do it with a regular kit, I'd plan on putting the pump as close as possible to the nozzle. Basically, where the stock airbox was so I could keep the pressurized line to about 6" or less. That should help the delay between pump activation and spraying.
But, there will still be a delay. Not much, but some delay. The motor takes time to spin up and the pressure will take some time to build.
I believe a fuel injector will work, but eventually rust out because it's not designed to work with water. The aquamist HSV is stainless steel....
Look at the PSI-FI WI thread. Ideal pump location, simple water source tap for washer bottle. All aquamist stuff except for pump.
HSV should be close to jet but I think it's OK to to be no more then foot from it.
Pump does not have to be right on top of the HSV. Having things close to the L front makes the install eaiser and cleaner though.
Problem is driving the HSV, the PP cost's some $$ but IMO injecting water in a similar fashion to the way fuel is injected is better then any other method. It's the cost that keeps most away, but the components are absolutly top notch stuff, you get what you pay for. Considering that you also want to trim excess dumped fuel when using WI dictates a device such as the PP anyway so thats why I went the way I did.
I didnt read everything, but the problem is placement of your check valve or solenoid if you have one.
I have a solenoid about 1ft from my nozzle and yes if out of boost for a while that piece drains empty, but I do not get that lag problem you have, since I have to pressurize only 1ft of hose. ONce that solenoid opens,100psi of water comes rushing to fill that 1ft of hose.
My future plans include a check valve immediately b4 the nozzle.
Ok, you described my issue perfectly. My output hose drains while the car sits or I drive without boost for a while. When I get on the throttle, it has to fill my output hose initially which is 4 feet long, this is where my initial lag comes from. I also think the check valve reacts slower than the solenoid, I noticed even more lag after replacing my solenoid with a check valve.
I think what I need to do is move my check valve down near the nozzle like you did, this should fix that issue..
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I second that. I have been very interested in the injector location and how long it might take to get to the motor. I have read so much conflicting info about before the intercooler after the intercooler i am not sure what to believe. I wish we could get some data for intake temps and EGT's from an install in both locations.
Randy
I second that. I have been very interested in the injector location and how long it might take to get to the motor. I have read so much conflicting info about before the intercooler after the intercooler i am not sure what to believe. I wish we could get some data for intake temps and EGT's from an install in both locations.
Randy
I had water injection in my older Z car and had no intercooler, i was running 15psi with no FMIC of any sorts. so I would like to run W/I in Jeans car too.
And this thread has some very good input from Phil and other members.
Wow that's a lot to read.
Omniphil, being unable to look outside my own box at times I aproach all fluid flow and pressure problems from a hydraulic guy point of view. The goal with your system being to hit the backside of a orfice with full pump capability instantly... If I read that right. 'you are using a pressure switch and not a progressive controler.'
Anywho here's my 2 cents worth...
1 cent... A check valve is not a bad idea, but a solinoid would be better. You are using fluid power to open a valve, and it is deducting from the amount of force that is seen on the backside of your orfice (nozzle). It does take measurable time to open that valve. granted is can be mesured in millaseconds only.
1.5 cents... there is resistance in hose. 4 feet of 1/4 hose will build more pressure at 5 gallons a minute than say 4 feet of 3/8 hose. But I don't think that this is your problem.
What the heck... I'll type it out in case someone wants to read...
The speed of Fluid flowing through a pipe is mesured in feet persecond. This is the velocity.
What comes out the other end is the volume of fluid. As it moves though the pipe this is the Flow Rate and is mesured generally in gallons perminute.
A large tube say will flow 5 GPM at a Velocity of 10 feet persecond. Where as a tube of same leangth one half the diameter will flow 5 GPM at 20 feet persecond.
Oh Yeah. And the measure of work being done or resistance in a system is mesured in PSI
2 cents... Most folk forget about the suction side of a pump, be it oil, water, liquified gasses... etc. There should be no vacum in the suction side. I think it was dvldoc who mentioned some place about the in-side hose from the trunk mount tank of a car being a larger ID. Vacum (anything less that atmostphiric pressure) can cause problems inside your pump where cavities of gas form and collaps inside the liquid. (ever see milky or foamy oily in a engine with a part clogged pick-up screen) This is called cavitation.
I placed my nozzle on the cold side pipe after the intercooler. As it was recommended to me by the WI guys to place it as close to the throttle plate as posable... But that's outside my box.
so then placing the pump as near as possible to the nozzle would be best for systems that control the pump to regulate flow.
However, for systems with an injector, placing the pump farther away from the injector would probably be helpful. The longer length of hose should act as a small reservior and help to smooth out pulsation... In this system the pump would always be running and pumping at full pressure. The injector holds back the pressure until needed. This seems ideal to me, as long as the pumps are capable of continuous high-pressure operation...
So the question is, are there any high speed valves for water other than the aquamist valve?
It just needs to have a reasonably fast response time... Maybe 20 ms or so... Doesn't need to be superfast like the aquamist valve...
The intent of the W/In process is to get 50/50 in the motor as effectively as possible. Running it through the hot side of the FMIC thru the FMIC and then up the cold side is not effective/efficient at all. The idea is "not" to cool internally the FMIC. If you are having weeping of 50/50 out of your long tubing when you are shut down, guess where that fluid went? In the bottom of the FMIC. Then there is the potential to get a "big gulp" if you know what I mean. Also the 50/50 is now soaking up heat on it's long travel to the TB and this will most probably reduce it's effectiveness. That IMO is why your having lag.
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Wow that's a lot to read.
Omniphil, being unable to look outside my own box at times I aproach all fluid flow and pressure problems from a hydraulic guy point of view. The goal with your system being to hit the backside of a orfice with full pump capability instantly... If I read that right. 'you are using a pressure switch and not a progressive controler.'
Anywho here's my 2 cents worth...
1 cent... A check valve is not a bad idea, but a solinoid would be better. You are using fluid power to open a valve, and it is deducting from the amount of force that is seen on the backside of your orfice (nozzle). It does take measurable time to open that valve. granted is can be mesured in millaseconds only.
1.5 cents... there is resistance in hose. 4 feet of 1/4 hose will build more pressure at 5 gallons a minute than say 4 feet of 3/8 hose. But I don't think that this is your problem.
What the heck... I'll type it out in case someone wants to read...
The speed of Fluid flowing through a pipe is mesured in feet persecond. This is the velocity.
What comes out the other end is the volume of fluid. As it moves though the pipe this is the Flow Rate and is mesured generally in gallons perminute.
A large tube say will flow 5 GPM at a Velocity of 10 feet persecond. Where as a tube of same leangth one half the diameter will flow 5 GPM at 20 feet persecond.
Oh Yeah. And the measure of work being done or resistance in a system is mesured in PSI
2 cents... Most folk forget about the suction side of a pump, be it oil, water, liquified gasses... etc. There should be no vacum in the suction side. I think it was dvldoc who mentioned some place about the in-side hose from the trunk mount tank of a car being a larger ID. Vacum (anything less that atmostphiric pressure) can cause problems inside your pump where cavities of gas form and collaps inside the liquid. (ever see milky or foamy oily in a engine with a part clogged pick-up screen) This is called cavitation.
I placed my nozzle on the cold side pipe after the intercooler. As it was recommended to me by the WI guys to place it as close to the throttle plate as posable... But that's outside my box.
Cheers
John
Yup, that is what I have found, the check valve seem to be slower for the reasons you mentioned. I think I'm going back to the solenoid, and placing it down near the injector, that should remove alot of my lag from the system.
If the turbo in the srt were more normal sized and had some lag everything would work great..
And Nivo, Im suprised you guys haven't done water injection yet, Its probably the single best thing you can do to a modified turbo car to keep egt temps down, and you dont have to dump in all that extra fuel. I even have and LED in the dash to tell me when the water is out, very handy.
The intent of the W/In process is to get 50/50 in the motor as effectively as possible. Running it through the hot side of the FMIC thru the FMIC and then up the cold side is not effective/efficient at all. The idea is "not" to cool internally the FMIC. If you are having weeping of 50/50 out of your long tubing when you are shut down, guess where that fluid went? In the bottom of the FMIC. Then there is the potential to get a "big gulp" if you know what I mean. Also the 50/50 is now soaking up heat on it's long travel to the TB and this will most probably reduce it's effectiveness. That IMO is why your having lag.
The location of my nozzle does induce some lag, but my issue is that my nozzle takes a good 2 seconds to spray after the system has sat for a while. I disconnect the pipe and I can activate the system while the car is off and count 2 seconds before i see water coming out of the nozzle. I'm going to relocate the nozzle at somepoint, but I think my issue is the check valve being so far from the nozzle as most of the water drains out of the 4 foot hose. I can actually watch it fill the clear hose before the nozzle sprays, thats not a good thing...
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