Having had one of these systems for a year both a single stage and a progressive controller and recorded WB (afr,boost and rpm) and taken the car in recently for some good ol' Mopar DRB II scanning, your observation are quite incorrect. Actually just the opposite is the case. I'm experiencing a "tip in" dip in AFR to the mid 10's when the pumps kicks in and no timing reduction at all holding 35-37 degrees of advance all the way throughthe rpm range. The chart shows activation is now! How do i know, well Methonal has a significantly lower afr than gasoline and the richness is evident upon boost activation at the desired psi. Mine is at 8 psi. Actually the ECU can't keep up. Now if you've mounted the injector(s) out in East Boo Foo (bad idea) and not in the up pipe near the TB well it might take 2 secs to get spray in although I even doubt that. Thats a physical property of the spray density and distance traveled, vacuum rate and pipe diameter. A 140 psi pump actuates as fast as the electrons can scurry from the controller to the pump. How many milli seconds that is I don't know. Thats a lot of psi keep in mind. All that is really required is a 60 psi pump to properly atomize the fluids.
These are the facts as recorded on reputable equipment and hands on experience.
FYI,
Marion
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Having had one of these systems for a year both a single stage and a progressive controller and recorded WB (afr,boost and rpm) and taken the car in recently for some good ol' Mopar DRB II scanning, your observation are quite incorrect. Actually just the opposite is the case. I'm experiencing a "tip in" dip in AFR to the mid 10's when the pumps kicks in and no timing reduction at all holding 35-37 degrees of advance all the way throughthe rpm range. The chart shows activation is now! How do i know, well Methonal has a significantly lower afr than gasoline and the richness is evident upon boost activation at the desired psi. Mine is at 8 psi. Actually the ECU can't keep up. Now if you've mounted the injector(s) out in East Boo Foo (bad idea) and not in the up pipe near the TB well it might take 2 secs to get spray in although I even doubt that. Thats a physical property of the spray density and distance traveled, vacuum rate and pipe diameter. A 140 psi pump actuates as fast as the electrons can scurry from the controller to the pump. How many milli seconds that is I don't know. Thats a lot of psi keep in mind. All that is really required is a 60 psi pump to properly atomize the fluids.
These are the facts as recorded on reputable equipment and hands on experience.
FYI,
Marion
Hmmm, well something is up with my setup then. It might be due to the check valve being so close to the pump.. My injector is also before the intercooler, but I'm watching pressure in the lines, not when the water reaches the engine.
I think I need to move the check valve close to the injector..
Are you using check valves or solenoids? What size pump and injector are you using?
I have the 150psi pump and the "M2" injector, which is rated at 2.8 gph at 150psi. My pump is located right where the AC dryer usually sits, theres a 8 inch hose to a check valve and then 4 feet of hose down to my injector in the hard pipe under the car right before the intercooler.
The strange part is I can replicate the lag even with the car off. I put a ground wire on my trigger pressure switch and ground the wire with the ignition on, with the intercooler pipe disconnected, there a 2 second delay before i see water shooting out of the nozzle after the car has sat overnight. And I can actually watch the water filling the tube going to the injector as I have clear tube. Once the system is primed it fires pretty quick.
On the road I find myself holding 5psi of boost to prime the system, after that it works good as long as I dont drive around in vacuum for a while, then it gets laggy again..
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Great read. Glad to see some real answers and testing being done. Great job and keep it up. The more we all learn the better these systems will get.
Randy
Umm I disagree with some of this...If I am reading correctly the idea of vacum clearing out the line is incorrect...If you installed the nozzle before the TB plate there is no vacum.
Next idea... if there was or is vacum it would pull the fluid keeping the line primed in a sense since the fluid would contine to feed from the tank.
Boost blowing water back to bottle it possible and can be resolved with a cheap check valve on the low presure side of the pump.
I have been testing the last 3 days with and without the check valve supplied by snowperformance and have not been able to see a difference in the logs...No knocking water seems to be on quick enough to deal with my 21-22PSI top...I also only run 90 octane...If the water was not fast enough then I certainly would have some knock.
Umm I disagree with some of this...If I am reading correctly the idea of vacum clearing out the line is incorrect...If you installed the nozzle before the TB plate there is no vacum.
Next idea... if there was or is vacum it would pull the fluid keeping the line primed in a sense since the fluid would contine to feed from the tank.
Boost blowing water back to bottle it possible and can be resolved with a cheap check valve on the low presure side of the pump.
I have been testing the last 3 days with and without the check valve supplied by snowperformance and have not been able to see a difference in the logs...No knocking water seems to be on quick enough to deal with my 21-22PSI top...I also only run 90 octane...If the water was not fast enough then I certainly would have some knock.
No vacuum? where does the air entering the motor come from?
I have a check valve, the boost does not go back into the bottle, it pressurizes the line up until it hits the check valve.
The water certainly does get into the motor, just not it the first second you nail WOT unless the system is primed and ready. At least that is how my system works, not saying they all do this, it maybe an issue with the way my lines are run..
Do this...
Let your car sit overnight. disconnect your pipe with the water nozzles.
turn ignition on and ground the trigger pressure switch, time how long it take before you see water shooting out the nozzles... It takes 2 seconds for me if the car sits over night. after it has primed once, its is very quick, until the car sits again..
As soon as the starter cranks there is vacuum, and when it fires there is even more vacuum.
Also, with my car the progressive controller is set to come on with 8 psi of boost. Now think about this that is not a lot of pressure and it sure is not going to creep in the nozzle from 1-7 psi of boost or even 15 psi as a matter of fact having a single stage before. Have you seen the diameter of the orifice? Minute to be sure.
My check valve is set up between the tank and the pump per Snows direction. AFAIK that is mainly there to stop syphoning of 50/50 into the cold pipe and then the intercooler or inthe case with other applications in the manifold creating a hydro lock situation. I could not mount my tank lower than the pump so the check valve is needed. On my single stage I used a solenoid instead but that was overkill and ran into some $$$.
On my install my pump is 3 " away from the nozzle and the TB, so if some fluid weeps (which i doubt due to orifice diameter and surface tension yada yada ) out of the nozzle it's 1/8 a teaspoon maybe if that. Now if you got 6 feet of line from the trunk, IF there is weeping it will be more and therefore more air volume to replace upon activation.
Omni when that pump comes on there should be instantaneous flow period. Check for leaks or if the pump is really doing it's job.
Check it ..Pull the red line and see if there is vacum. Actually pull any line on the back side of the TB while the car is running and you will find no vac.
The only time there would be any slight vacum is when you open the throttle body and your not boosting...If the air intake system is restriction free there should be little to no vacum at any time. Vacum is generated by adding the restriction of the throttle body plate.
I'm not sure what you mean when you say the water presurizes the line up to the check valve..Water is extremly dense you do not have enough presure to "squish" water. If your check valve is working and your lines are not leaking it would be not be possible to push that water back with a check valve in place.
I have tested and done what your talking about because I thought the exact same thing. The only time I have a delay is when the tank was run dry or air got into the system from a faulty line or connection point.
I have also had long discussions about this with snowperformance tech support, they have tested it as well...
I don't know about your system but mine has a 140PSI pump. I start to bring mine on around 6-7 PSI and I go full blow at 15 PSI...When I used to have the initial ping issues that your talking about with spikes I thought the same...I got an EBC and slowed the spool...What it really was later I found the problem was too rich of a system...Leaning the car out fixed the problems after adding water. The knock went away and I set the EBC for fastest spool which hits 21.5-22PSI no knock. Timing stays well above 20 degreess even around 3000RPM in 3rd.
I can't really argue with you on this your system I'm sure is different..You may have a different mount point for you pump, your tank, your nozzle, etc. All of these are factors since water runs down hill. If your presure line is not solid it may be stretching this would cause some delay.
In your initial email you spoke of seconds...I think any delay I may have which is definitly possible is in terms of milliseconds.
I personally would call the vendor of your product and discuss how to fix this problem.
Hmmm, well something is up with my setup then. It might be due to the check valve being so close to the pump.. My injector is also before the intercooler, but I'm watching pressure in the lines, not when the water reaches the engine.
Why did you mount the injector before the intercooler. Not a good place for it.
I didnt read everything, but the problem is placement of your check valve or solenoid if you have one.
I have a solenoid about 1ft from my nozzle and yes if out of boost for a while that piece drains empty, but I do not get that lag problem you have, since I have to pressurize only 1ft of hose. ONce that solenoid opens,100psi of water comes rushing to fill that 1ft of hose.
My future plans include a check valve immediately b4 the nozzle.
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Quote: Originally Posted by Dole Smelly
Just for the record, the torque setting for the oil drain plug is 20 ft-lbs, not infinity.
This might help with your issue....but I think you also want to get your injection point moved to after the IC and put any devices such as a solonoid closer to the jet.
Those are really desinged for high volume use on a 3/8" hose. Like on a RV and those are pretty much just used with the 2088 series pump because they are only 45psi
When you spraying though a mist nozzle it's a whole different story than trying to wash your hands.
All I read was the first post... but I have to disagree.
I have a solenoid, and I see the benefits of WI, milliseconds after putting the pedal to the floor.
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