Whats the point of meth on a stock engine?

[GrenEggz]

OK before you guys crucify me let me explain.
I understand the benefits of meth injection. (Lower combustion temps, higher octane rating, decreased detonation, ability to run race maps).

Now my question is that is great and all however on a stock engine you will approach a barrier of the max hp an engine can take.
So if you have an engine that can handle say 600hp, and you currently make 599hp at 30 psi (maxing out your turbo), with your regular tune. So with the meth in theory you can advance the timing more, lower temps, still 30psi (maxing out your turbo), essentially more aggressive to make 601hp that would make rods start to bend and/or other engine internals start to get angry

So if your already maxing out a motor, meth injection wouldn't benefit? or could it push it pass the 600hp barrier (safely)?

[Disclaimer: All numbers are hypothetical]

[lunchbox660]

i would hope a sensible person would invest a couple hundred bucks WELL before reaching those power levels to add meth, just out of principle... sure it can be done without it, but when a good meth kit is so cheap, why risk it?

[Coolingmist]

Any of the tuners we work with can always get more HP with the meth kit than tuning the vehicle without. It gets you more power and a safer tune. Just make sure you get a system that has a failsafe so if you do tune for it, you can protect your engine in the case of flow failure.

CM

[GrenEggz]

Ok got both of you guys. So your saying with the tune and adding more power it will still be safe, even at engine limits. Also do you need a custom? or can you run it as a safety thing (such as just running it at max boost to keep temps down)? I doesn't affect your a/f when it increases the octane does it? Sorry I'm just starting to expand my knowledge into the meth community. Thanks for all your support

[Coolingmist]

increasing your octane will increase your a/f as it makes your vehicle richer. how "safe" it can be tuned depends on how good your tune is. A crap tune can cause your engine to blow up as well. What meth/water injection does is RAISE YOUR RESISTANCE TO DETONATION. It allows you to get more out of your vehicle. There are limits to everything.

Some customers dont done, but they put the meth kit on and raise the boost. This has limits as well. If you do such a thing, get a failsafe.

CM

[Adionik]

Good luck with 30psi without Meth/Q16/E85

It's about the added octane that helps you even get to those boost levels without knocking till it blows. So you won't make any real power on straight gas for long.

[GrenEggz]

Quote: Originally Posted by Adionik

Good luck with 30psi without Meth/Q16/E85

It's about the added octane that helps you even get to those boost levels without knocking till it blows. So you won't make any real power on straight gas for long.

Thank you fine sir. That was the link in my brain that was not making sense.

Thank you also, Coolingmist.

[x148]

why run meth when you can run E85, i got a stage 3 with a 57mm turbo and i got to many mods to list but i got a walboro 255 fuel pump with 750cc injectors enough to send the E85 to the engine and i make 430fwhp+ at 22psi thats after i engage my high octane switch on my turbo toys, if E85 is in your area why spend the money for a meth kit? My car runs so much better on E85, on 93octane it sounds like its cammed......do your research and see if E85 is in your area and make sure you have an upgraded fuel pump and injectors to send it.... good luck

[Adionik]

Quote: Originally Posted by x148

why run meth when you can run E85, i got a stage 3 with a 57mm turbo and i got to many mods to list but i got a walboro 255 fuel pump with 750cc injectors enough to send the E85 to the engine and i make 430fwhp+ at 22psi thats after i engage my high octane switch on my turbo toys, if E85 is in your area why spend the money for a meth kit? My car runs so much better on E85, on 93octane it sounds like its cammed......do your research and see if E85 is in your area and make sure you have an upgraded fuel pump and injectors to send it.... good luck

Yes, also do your research that E85 has a tendency to make your stock fuel sender go out...

We found a pump really close to my house, but i'm not 100% on the switch yet. I like that I wouldn't have to worry about meth failing and less components, but i'm not siked at the gas gauge not working.

[kagekun]

Quote: Originally Posted by x148

why run meth when you can run E85, i got a stage 3 with a 57mm turbo and i got to many mods to list but i got a walboro 255 fuel pump with 750cc injectors enough to send the E85 to the engine and i make 430fwhp+ at 22psi thats after i engage my high octane switch on my turbo toys, if E85 is in your area why spend the money for a meth kit? My car runs so much better on E85, on 93octane it sounds like its cammed......do your research and see if E85 is in your area and make sure you have an upgraded fuel pump and injectors to send it.... good luck

cause E85 isnt everywhere and it eats fuel senders and its a pita

[x148]

my car works fine no issues everything works as usual, i talked to a few mechanics about it and did plenty of research, you can see videos on youtube on how its cleaner than 93 and other unleaded fuels, type in E85 on google and research it for yourself, alot of high HP cars run on E85, its excellent for turbo motors.....

[SnowTech.4]

Safety means a lot of things.

What nobody in this thread has mentioned is that if you have an engine that quite simply can not handle any more power from a structural standpoint, making more power will break something. A water/methanol system does not make your rods stronger.

It will prevent detonation, and that will save your engine's life in many cases. But if hypothetically your rods can't handle 600HP at X rpm, even with 0 detonation and a great tune, then water/methanol will not magically make it so you can run in excess of 600HP at X rpm.

Adding octane does not make your tune richer. It increases your resistance to detonation. Water/methanol injection makes your AFR richer because it adds fuel in the form of methanol. Not because it adds octane in the combustion chamber.

[apexcrazy]

Quote: Originally Posted by SnowTech.4

Safety means a lot of things.

What nobody in this thread has mentioned is that if you have an engine that quite simply can not handle any more power from a structural standpoint, making more power will break something. A water/methanol system does not make your rods stronger.

Yes , pushing a set of components beyond what they can withstand will cause them to fail . this is not a fault of an injection system , its the fault of the tuners decision to push the envelope too far .
By that logic if you pop a stock motor because you pushed the boost too much , does that mean increasing the boost on any stock motor is a bad decision , all the time ? No .

The fact is , if your motor is built for 600 , and you are at 599 hp , anything you do to get more power is going to put your motor at risk .

And while some may scoff at water/meth injection on a stock motor as useless , remember , a lot of people scoff at a fwd turbo shitbox as being also useless .
Im running an e-85 blend in my SCT PRP flashed setup . Its on a stock motor & it allows me to push my boost & timing a lot farther than I could without it . But at times I run across somebody (haters) that trys to tell me that increased octane wont make my car faster , & that e-85 will make my car run lean .... . As you know , its all about the tune .

[Rhunter]

Quote: Originally Posted by SnowTech.4

Safety means a lot of things.


Adding octane does not make your tune richer. It increases your resistance to detonation. Water/methanol injection makes your AFR richer because it adds fuel in the form of methanol. Not because it adds octane in the combustion chamber.

Someone once told me that My tune went rich because of the addition of race gas.

I was like ok, noted, but I'm pretty sure the bent turbo shaft may have a play in it as well.

I'm glad you posted this.

[nutz]

^if you add some high octane race gas without advancing the timing it will make it richer due to unburnt HC's being released from the CC (much like an over retarded ignition). your tune for "race gas" and "pump" will not be the same as they burn a different rates (global increase in ign. lead for race gas) the race gas (except Q) I have used likes it a bit richer anyways usualy about 1/2 a point on the AFR's in low/mid vacuum but can handle a leaner AFR in high load than pump, usually closer to RBP (as long as the pistons can handle the heat) "apples and oranges"

next time try a global increase in ign. lead for race gas even if only in WOT (thats all we care about anyways) C-16 usually likes 6-8* (or more ) over pump
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as for W/M on a 600hp 2.4l srt-4 motor well you may just want to stick with race gas for an engine setup of that degree, its not that I think W/M cant help its that I think you may be pushing the limits a bit too far even a good (low 98-100 unleaded) race gas with a W/M injection would be MUCH more to the likeing of that type of setup. 600hp with (forgive the phrase) a band-aid like W/M is a very dangerous game and a super tough tune (you may just blow the mill trying to tune it) assuming your example is just hypothetical and you are pushing the normal 250-400 range most street tuners are W/M can be a huge asset and inexpensive insurance if prepared right. since 99% of the kits are basically the same (save the fancy gauges and stuff) find a vendor/company that you trust to give you the technical advise needed to get a good base "tune" with your new meth kit, this can and will be invaluable in the setup for you as this is NOT a bolt on type application like a CAI and will take a degree of knowledge and theroy to get it right and safe for you

GL with the new setup OP, you will like all W/M has to offer