HOM w/S2 in lower RPMs at WOT? - SRT Forums

FYX193 · 06-01-2006, 05:57 PM

I've been successful at holding HOM reliably with different combinations of nozzles/pressures & settings on my coolingmist W/I system (No Controller). The only consistant issue I'm having is that if I WOT at anything under 3200rpm with HOM active, it will kick off prematurely. My guess is I'm spraying too much fluid at too low of an RPM for the car to make any use of it. Then when it needs the fluid to use HOM the car is having to burn off the excess fluid in the engine causing knock and kicking me out of HOM.

With just one nozzle "M5" located just above the IAT sensor and spraying w/90deg fitting directly at the sensor (Full-On at ~10psi), I can very reliably hold HOM after 3200rpm at WOT. I've never been kicked out of HOM above 3200rpm at WOT that I know of.

Has anyone else been able to reliably hold HOM during WOT under 3200rpms all the way to redline with W/I? If you have done it with out a controller, explain your setup... If you are using a controller, state the controller used and settings, nozzle(s), pump pressure etc...

FYX193 · 06-21-2006, 12:52 PM

After a few weeks of waiting on a new hose fitting, I'm now able to run my 2 nozzles again. I'm currently running the M3 near the IC exit tank (facing the IC), and the M5 near the TB (facing the temp sensor). My M3 has a boost switch that is set for 11psi and the M5 has its boost switch set to 16psi.

With these nozzles and settings using only -20deg blue windshield washing fluid, I can now hold HOM in any RPM/Speed/Gear. I have my water pressure gauge reading between 100 and 140psi when the system is spraying.

In my earlier testing, I was assuming I needed more Meth or more pressure or a lower boost switch setting. After several months of trying different things, I have come to the conclusion that holding HOM with S2 w/Toys requires a large quantity of fluid. Based on my injector size, I've calculated that the combination of an M3 and an M5 is the most extreme nozzle configuration I could possibly run. I will be lowering my pump's pressure setting until the HOM kicks out, and then I will increase it a little to make sure I can hold HOM reliably without using too much pressure & flow. With the -20 deg washer fluid, I'm only using a 35% Meth to Water ratio. This means that more meth isn't always the best solution to maintaining HOM. I believe this may also hold true with the S3 w/Toys as well. I think it just needs a larger GPH nozzle configuration and more than likely a decent progressive controller. I would definately be using a Progressive controller so that I could get as much as possible from the W/I system, but right now it's a little out of my budget. That's why I have been trying my best to get the most out of a basic 2 Stage coolingmist W/I system. If anyone has any questions about my setup let me know, and I'll try my best to help you out.

d34 · 06-21-2006, 01:03 PM

have u checked ur a/f ratio since u put both nozzles on??? can u give me a list of mods... stock turbo??? i have stg 3 and was thinkin of doin this... what type of solenoid do u have 4 the 2nd nozzle???

FYX193 · 06-21-2006, 08:00 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by d34

have u checked ur a/f ratio since u put both nozzles on??? can u give me a list of mods... stock turbo??? i have stg 3 and was thinkin of doin this... what type of solenoid do u have 4 the 2nd nozzle???

I haven't ever checked my a/f ratio since I don't have a wideband, and I've never been to a dyno. So, I cannot say anything about how much it's affecting the a/f. What I can say is that it feels like it is more powerful than it used to be (especially with HOM active every time I drive the car).

I am currently running the Stock (unmodified) turbo. I am also using a DSABC (Dual Stage Automatic Boost Controller) combined with a Greddy Profect B Spec II and the S2 WGA with the proper 4mm preload. I am currently tuned to Spike 21psi and slowly drop to 15-16psi by redline; however, the computer see's & controls boost up to 13psi and then the Greddy takes over after that (Hardly any PTB issues I have to try a little harder to make it Part Throttle Over Boost).

As for my current (Installed) mods:

Mopar Stage 2 w/ Toys
Mopar Performance Clutch
Mopar Short Throw Shifter
Mopar Rear Tension Strut Kit
Mopar Performance Air Filter
Mopar Performance Plug Wires
RPM Services 62mm Billet TB
MPx/FBM 62mm (tappered to) 70mm Billet Spacer
MPx Under Drive Pulley
B&B 3" Turbo Back Exhaust
3" High Flow Magnaflow Cat.

Dual Stage Automatic Boost Controller
Cooling Mist Dual Stage Water Injection
-(M3 Nozzle w/90deg fitting near IC facing IC end Tank active at 11psi)
-(M5 Nozzle w/90deg fitting near TB facing Temp Sensor active at 16psi)
-(Coolingmist 100psi W/I pump set to run ~100 to 140 psi)
-(x2 Standard Coolingmist Solenoids)
-(x2 Coolingmist Boost Switches)
-(Using Devils Own Pressure Gauge (w/Gauge Snubber), Hose, and Quick Connect Fittings)
-(Only using -20 deg generic blue windshield washer fluid)

JMB Hard Pipes w/Custom W.I. Bungs (1st Pipes with this W/I mod)
JMB Oil Catch Can
Greddy Type S BOV
Greddy Profec-B Spec II EBC
Booger Shifter Bushings
Energy Suspension MM Inserts

FYX193 · 06-21-2006, 08:24 PM

The problem I'm seeing with alot of S3 w/Toys using W/I is that they seem to be focused too much with increasing the Meth mixture. When I did that to help S2 w/Toys hold HOM, I always had poor results. In fact it didn't seem to do much but eat a hole through my wallet more than it should. With S2 and S3 we need to suppress knock, and increasing the octane does help this, but water seems to do it more efficiantly. I can say this because I hold HOM more reliably with only a 35% Meth. mixture and an increased flow rate.

I think the best thing to do is to increase the flow of W/I by getting more PSI out of the pump ~150psi or near it, and a larger GPH nozzle or set of nozzles. (Obviously a good Progressive Controller would increase efficiancy and the ability to hold HOM easier) When I figured my max nozzle size/configuration based on my injector size/flow, I came to the conclusion that an M3 with an M5 would provide the max amount of W/I I could safely run. Then if need be I can back it down from there either with the pump pressure or the nozzle size (swapping the M3 for an M1 nozzle). Soon I will start lowering the flow to optimize my power & W/I usage, just saving up to buy a good wideband to help with the tuning...

Honestly if I had S3 w/Toys I wouldn't increase the Meth. mixture until I've tried increasing the flow rate. Once the flow is increased to the maximum safest level (calculated based upon injector size and flow rate), I would start to increase the Meth mixture in increments of 5-10%. In your case S3 is using the same injectors as my S2, but you have the regulator w/S3 which is changing the flow when compared to my S2 fuel flow. There is a link somewhere in this forum that explains how to calculate the maximum safest nozzle sizes to use based on your fuel flow.

d34 · 06-21-2006, 09:02 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by FYX193

The problem I'm seeing with alot of S3 w/Toys using W/I is that they seem to be focused too much with increasing the Meth mixture. When I did that to help S2 w/Toys hold HOM, I always had poor results. In fact it didn't seem to do much but eat a hole through my wallet more than it should. With S2 and S3 we need to suppress knock, and increasing the octane does help this, but water seems to do it more efficiantly. I can say this because I hold HOM more reliably with only a 35% Meth. mixture and an increased flow rate.

I think the best thing to do is to increase the flow of W/I by getting more PSI out of the pump ~150psi or near it, and a larger GPH nozzle or set of nozzles. (Obviously a good Progressive Controller would increase efficiancy and the ability to hold HOM easier) When I figured my max nozzle size/configuration based on my injector size/flow, I came to the conclusion that an M3 with an M5 would provide the max amount of W/I I could safely run. Then if need be I can back it down from there either with the pump pressure or the nozzle size (swapping the M3 for an M1 nozzle). Soon I will start lowering the flow to optimize my power & W/I usage, just saving up to buy a good wideband to help with the tuning...

Honestly if I had S3 w/Toys I wouldn't increase the Meth. mixture until I've tried increasing the flow rate. Once the flow is increased to the maximum safest level (calculated based upon injector size and flow rate), I would start to increase the Meth mixture in increments of 5-10%. In your case S3 is using the same injectors as my S2, but you have the regulator w/S3 which is changing the flow when compared to my S2 fuel flow. There is a link somewhere in this forum that explains how to calculate the maximum safest nozzle sizes to use based on your fuel flow.

its funny that u mentioned that... i was thinkin bout it 2nite... if i should increase flow or increase meth %... it would ALOT easier 2 increase meth (local shop sells 99% meth by the gallon)... i wont b doin much with it n the next 2 weeks... im gettin married the 30th so we r still workin on all that... after the 1st week of july i will b testin more...

turbojack · 06-21-2006, 09:51 PM

FYX you have hit the sweet spot. I found this very same problem when I first did my WI install.

My orig install was a single jet in the IC exit tank. this jet was hooked up to an Aquamist HSV controlled by my PSI-FI Power Paq (kind of like a 5th injector) it took Mark at PSI-FI a little bit to get it tuned to hold HOM but depending how I made a run I would sometimes get bumped out of HOM. I added a second injector up by the throttle body and never had an issue after that (S2). Now I'm on S3 and am in the process of redoing my WI system to hold HOM with this setup.

It has been my opinion for awhile now that you want to do two things in getting HOM to hold reliably with WI, lower the intake air charge and get some bigger water droplets into the combustion chamber. The first jet in the exit tank is for getting the air intake charge as low as possible. Water from the second jet is not getting broken down as well like the first jet and it's these bigger water molecules that get into the combustion chamber that help with knock suppression....but still need the lower air charge, so both jets compliment each other to get to the end result.

I too do not believe more meth (fuel) is the answer....it's less heat and water is better then meth at doing this. S2 & S3 have plenty of fuel, in fact now that your adding allot of water you might want to think about trimming away the excess fuel that was dumped by the factory....but don't do this without some safety controls, your power should increase and HOM should still stay on.