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E85 question regarding fuel line, and filter.

43K views 160 replies 16 participants last post by  plumsrt8crazy 
#1 ·
So I'm going to be swapping my new srt over to e85. I have searched quite a bit but haven't come up with a 'for sure' answer.

My plan is to do a walbro 450 intake w bottleneck fix, but am having a hard time figuring out what submersible line to use in tank.. Also for the feed and return, I am debating between E85 rated ( Teflon coated ) fuel line, or PTFE. Lastly I was trying to find a 10 micron SS element filter but the only one I found thats close and slnot super expensive was the magnafuel mp-7010. Which is a 4 1/2" x1 1/2" 25 micron. Any help or suggestions/ recommendations would help out. And sorry if I missed threads with the obvious answers , but I did look!! Injectors will be fic 1100s.
 
#2 ·
You gotta pay for a decent filter, because cheap ones don't exist. 145 for a fuelab 6 micron is about the best you'll do. I used the gates submersible line. It costs 25/ft from summit or Jegs, but you don't even need a foot of it. For the external line I've used the twist-lok but I know the PTFE is the best.
 
#3 ·
Thank you sir! The most cost effective good filter I saw was a magnafuel 25 micron SS element for $75.. Is 25 to big? Ethanol is dirty, so I just didnt know how small you should go.

Any part number on that? I found a bunch, and nobody really states if its ok to be submersed in ethanol..

Gates 27097, Gates Submersible Fuel Line Hoses | Gates





I was looking at just some E85 rated rubber braided hose, but saw the ptfe and was a little curious, but concerned about the static it creates... So I asked the "tech" guy at summitt, about it, and the answer he gives me, is "just make sure your car has good grounds"...... really?? Imworried about a static spark with PTFE, and thats how you re assure me?? wtf!!!:surprise:
 
#4 ·
Personally, I have been using a cheap Russell 40 micron filter for the past few years with e85 and haven't had any problems. I know duster360 will tell everyone how stupid, uneducated and naive I am and that he wouldn't even put that on his worst enemy's lawn mower. However, it has been working for me and I check it several times a year and never have a problem. I also have the stock pre-filter on both my pumps. Whatever you decided, get a filter with a stainless element for e85. Paper filters can work, but the water in e85 can cause the element to swell.

Some people say no smaller than 40 micron for e85, others say 10.

Use the Gates or Napa submersible hose for in the tank.

I have used the Summit brand braided nylon fuel line and their fittings the entire time my car has been on e85.

E85 isn't dirty by nature. If you're seeing that you either need to find a new fueling station or clean the inside of your tank (or both).

Here is a post I made a while ago that might help.
http://www.srtforums.com/forums/f187/return-line-bottle-neck-fix-parts-605175/
 
#5 ·
#6 ·
It's all about the filter surface area. Regardless of one person having luck with a tiny bullet filter, i would not recommend using it. Fuelab filters are rated for ethanol and have significant surface area for filtering. I run an 828 series 6 micron currently. A 40 micron particle can still clog an injector, so i'd definitely stick to 10 micron.
 
#32 ·
It's all about the filter surface area. Regardless of one person having luck with a tiny bullet filter, i would n veot recommend using it. Fuelab filters are rated for ethanol and have significant surface area for filtering. I run an 828 series 6 micron currently. A 40 micron particle can still clog an injector, so i'd definitely stick to 10 micron.
Well I got some good info out of this thread. Thanks guys. I decided to go with the fuelab 82832 which is the 5" 6 micron fiberglass element. And just change the element once a season or so. When we do all the canister stuff I'll pull the tank and clean the inside very good. Any tips or pointers on that? Any good cleaner to use?

So I guess the only thing left is the feed and return..gonna be -8 feed , -6 return .. Still debating PTFE or e85 rated nylon wrapped rubber lines.

Will do on the Napa/gates submersible line, so thanks for that one.
 
#7 ·
I'm not the only one that has had luck with this or similar filters. A filter can get plugged regardless of how much surface area there is. Filters are a maintenance item, and as such should be checked on a regular basis. Better yet, monitor fuel pressure and you'll know what is happening in real time. :thumbupsq
 
#8 ·
Thanks guys, good to see some old timers still in here, lol :wink:

OK, so your saying the Magnafuel is a bullet style?

Overall Length (in): 4.250 in.
Outside Diameter (in): 1.500 in.

The 828 fuelabs are 5" long as well but whats the diameter? I checked fuelabs site and didnt see a 6 micron SS element.. I'll look again
 
#9 ·
#10 ·
There really aren't any 10 micron stainless steel. The fuelab filters use micro fiberglass. Your magnafuel filter looks decent. The jab was more at a russell bullet filter. They're tiny and i wouldn't trust them for any real filtering protection.
 
#15 ·
So I'm going to be swapping my new srt over to e85. I have searched quite a bit but haven't come up with a 'for sure' answer.

My plan is to do a walbro 450 intake w bottleneck fix, but am having a hard time figuring out what submersible line to use in tank.. .
Don't use Gates 27093 30R10, mine blew out around 150 miles and left me stranded in another state.



I found some EVO people were using some TF0001275 Convoluted fuel line hose from APE. Auto Performance Engineering - Walbro fuel pumps and more

Its the 8.78-inch flex hose is for $4.00, 3 pic down on website. I have read on EVOforum this hose comes in black, its nylon flex hose, and is E85 compatible. I ordered some and got it in a few days but have not gone back and installed it yet.
Walbro 400 issues - EvoXForums.com - Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution X Forums



Found this warning against the use of SAE J30R10 hose in E85.
Fore Innovations: E85 Attack on Metals and Rubbers
 
#16 ·
anti static Im assuming? That was one thing that worried me
 
#17 ·
the sub fuel line i was looking at was the gates 27097, not the 27093
 
#18 ·
Both have a 100 psi working pressure.

Also, read this from here, Fore Innovations: E85 Attack on Metals and Rubbers


Let's assume the flourocarbon shields could prevent the permeation of E85. Even so, there is no flourocarbon "shield" on the ends of the hose, because the hose has been cut. If the hose end(s) are submerged, the fuel will permeate through the end of the hose, past the hose clamp, into the pressurized region, causing the rubber to expand, separate from the reinforcement, and eventually lead to failure.
 
#21 ·
Well. Not trying to start a bitch fest but dave street tuned my car and it was phenomenal.. I'm just happy to have some good advice lol
 
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#22 ·
To add some fun to this. My Bosch044 died tonight, right as i went to floor it for some logging. It couldn't have worse timing. I've already paid for a 1/2 mile race event this weekend that Duster has been dialing in my tune for.

Guess that answers the question of whether the 044 can last on e85 or not. My car's only been running on e85 with that pump for a total of maybe 12 months. It's been in the car since May 2012, but the car wasn't running Jan 2013 to Nov 2014.
 
#23 ·
That sucks man! That was one of my final threads with my last srt.. Something along the lines of "Bosch 044 not meant for e85" .. I had a 044 in my last car .. Had it in for about a year without an issue. But just decided on the 450 as it's actually rated for E this time around.
 
#24 ·
Great info on this thread for my up coming install....
 
#25 ·
After having to drain and drop my tank 2 times, I cut an access hole in the floor the last time the tank was out. I have a PT Cruiser so my pump location my be different than the SRT4.



 
#27 · (Edited)
Morons who don't even know they're morons are really the worst kind and should be ostracized. Its really pathetic when they think they have even a shred of value to offer.

Here's what an engineer at Injector Dynamics thinks about the fools who want everyone should be as stupid as they are and use +40micron tiny disk fuel filter.


My Official Agenda: keep your car running well


Tony Injector Dynamics said:
Seems simple enough, so why are so many people misinformed?{ie: Gizmodo} I hear pretty regularly that people are told by fuel filter manufacturers that their 10µ filters are not ethanol compatible, so if they’re going to run ethanol, they need to run a 40µ or bigger stainless element. While this is true, a stainless element is much better for use with ethanol, the manufacturer has just made a recommendation that will likely cause injector problems down the road. People don’t like to hear this after the damage, trust me!

The filter before your pump serves mainly to protect the fuel pump. Depending on the pump, usually a 30-100µ filter is used here. The filter after the pump serves to protect the injectors and as noted, needs to be much finer. Being that the filter is protecting the injectors, anything after the filer is technically not filtered. This isn’t a big concern in OEM fuel systems which mostly have hard lines, but when you’re plumbing your race car with rubber hose, do yourself a favor and put the fuel filter right up by the rail inlet. This will leave the least amount of unfiltered fuel system and protect your injectors.

A 10µ filter is generally sufficient and they are readily available, with paper elements. If you’re running ethanol I suggest digging a little and finding a 10µ or similar ethanol compatible element. XRP has a new 10µ stainless element and Fuelab has a 6µ fiberglass element that is ethanol compatible.

Also, stay away from small fuel filters, especially those tiny ones with a single round screen disk. Those shouldn't even be allowed on the market. The least bit of contamination and they're clogged enough to be a major restriction in the system. The more surface area your filter has, the longer the service interval will be. A pleated filter cut apart and stretched out would probably surprise you with how much surface area of filtration there is!
full article :http://injectordynamics.com/articles/injector-dynamics-newsletter-feb-2013/

Take away: morons that advocate using a tiny 1" disk 40micron fuel filter are just that,,,morons{ei Gizmodo}
 
#29 ·
Morons who don't even know they're morons are really the worst kind and should be ostracized. Its really pathetic when they think they have even a shred of value to offer.

Here's what an engineer at Injector Dynamics thinks about the fools who want everyone should be as stupid as they are and use +40micron tiny disk fuel filter.


My Official Agenda: keep your car running well




full article :Newsletter - Feb 2013 - Injector Dynamics

Take away: morons that advocate using a tiny 1" disk 40micron fuel filter are just that,,,morons{ei Gizmodo}
You ignored my question, as I knew you would. It was a simple yes or no question, two or three characters is all it takes to answer it.

I never said anyone should use one filter over another. I simply provided my experience with it and let people make their own decision. I don't try to force my opinion down other people's throats, my online reputation has no meaning to me so feel free to continue with the insults.

Source, roughly half way down: FAQ - 340 Stealth Fuel Pumps - Aeromotive
Aeromotive has conducted extensive testing of the 340 Stealth Pump in E85 fuel, achieving 1,000 plus run hours of service life operating at 60 PSI and 13.5 Volts. In testing, it was found a filter service interval that gave good fuel pump service life required a new, down-stream filter be installed every 10 run-hours. It is vital to understand that a blocked filter creates severe flow restriction of pump output, building excessively high operating pressure between the pump and the contaminated element. If the Stealth 340 is allowed to run in this environment, operating pressures between pump and filter can exceed 90 PSI, creating extreme current draw and reduced cooling flow, resulting in rapid failure of the fuel pump motor assembly.
So I'll ask you again, are these the same Aeromotive engineers you refer to? I notice you've dropped them from your list in your latest rant.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the small filter works for me. You can't argue that, there is simply no way to do so. Real world experience > theory. Your only response is to attack, not conduct yourself in something that even resembles and mature manner. You can't even agree to disagree. You say they can't work, I've shown it does work, and it has for over 4 years. There's really nothing more to say. :tongue:
 
#30 ·
Wow this is really sad,,,,,Everyone bare in mind that this imbecile is not only suggesting using the SMALLEST, most incorrectly sized filter on the market, but he even once suggested that NO FUEL FILTER is 100% acceptable" The level of such stupidity is unprecedented, even for here.

Pay attention to the ratings of the filters on the fuel pumps you're going to and the filter in your car becomes a moot point. Many stations use a 5 or 10 micron filter. They're required to have at least a 30 micron filter.
Ok so if he's so stupid to think that you really don't even need a fuel filter so it makes sense that he'd so foolishly think ANY filter would work,,so the CHEAPER the BETTER!!!


Everyone ask yourself this:
What filter would best protect your engine?



Any reasonable human being with the IQ above a door knob would NOT pick the 1in^2 postage stamp. lol,,,but not Giz!!! lol......:stab:
 
#38 ·
Yea , I dont care. I want it done right, with quality parts , so I dont end up doing it again.
 
#42 · (Edited)
This is all great information... I'm researching this very topic right now before I pull the trigger on E85. I know I will need the bottleneck fix, an inline filter, a new pump, and all the fittings. I already have the AGP return line kit installed on the car so the feed line is all I need to worry about, but I was planning on running the stock feed line (unless someone advises me not to).

So, for all of us reading this thread who are the type to quadruple check before buying something and want to make it perfect, can someone make a mock-up parts list for EVERYTHING we will need?

I will just start a dumbed down version that hopefully someone can iterate:

1. Bottleneck fix
-Parker 801 or Gates 27097 submersible line
-what correct fittings for the lines? Bulkhead? Please advise?
2. New fuel pump
-Walbro 450lph in-tank *because safe for E85*
3. Inline fuel filter for feed line (placed where on feed line?)
-Must meet the *<10 micron SS element filter* requirement
-FUELAB 828 Series Inline Fuel Filters 82832-5 (what -AN?)
-any other filters we can use? Please advise?
4. Return line (already have)
-Should be all set in this department
5. Fuel pump rewire
-I'm sure their is a bunch of threads on this and probably a kit, so I'm good here.

Lastly, I'm considering keeping the stock feed line. If that is a problem, let me know. I have researched, and read over this thread, but I just want someone to provide a dumbed down list of things we will need with their respective AN sizing, parts names, part numbers (IF possible), etc. I feel like I'm making this a bit more complicated than it needs to be........... :stab: But like Comatoast I want to be absolutely certain before pulling the plug.
 
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#44 ·
NIce.. I was actually going to do what you just did and update my original post.

The fittings, is going to be based off what type of line you use and what size, same thing for the AN fittings for the filter. Im doing my feed/intank stuff -8 ( 1/2" ) return will be -6 ( 3/8" )

ONly thing I need to figure out now is all the fittings I'll need , and if I will be able to run a -8 in tank from the bulkhead to the pump ( for the parker 801 line ) Can you get a -8 fitting for the walbro 450?
 
#49 ·
Yes, those are the correct fittings. I have put together multiple systems using those exact parts. You could shop around and see if you can find them cheaper though.

Didn't you say you already have an AGP return line though? If so, I would seriously consider moving moving the regulator to be after the rail. I talked with engineers :grin: from both Fuelab and Magnafuel and they recommended the regulator be after the rail, within two feet of it.
Thanks! :thumbsup:

Yes, I do have the return line kit already installed. I was referring to your diagram for the parts needed in the canister and the inline fuel filter location. Great diagram btw. Can I leave the factory feed line or do you advise against that? Also, Comatoast is referring to "stat o seals" which I won't lie, I don't know what that means. Are these implicated in your diagram's part list? And lastly, I think I will keep the location of the regulator only because that is the way the kit came. I am not disagreeing with you, just going by what I have now.... Unless you can explain exactly why I should relocate it, theoretically speaking.

Sorry for the tons of questions, want to get it right the first time. Much like Coma, installing won't be an issue, just getting all the parts right.
 
#50 ·
When you say leave the factory feed line, do you mean leave it unused or use it as the return line? Either way it would be fine to leave it there. I removed mine when I did my setup, but I did that simply because I ran -8 for both feed and return and didn't want the stock line there.

Stat-o-seals are in the diagram. They are 178009ERL. They look like washers with rubber on the inside. They are used to seal the bulkhead to the canister top. Google the part number and you'll see a picture of them.

Feel free to disagree with me all you want, my feelings don't get hurt. This is supposed to be a place where you can actually have a discussion. :thumbsup: This is from Aeromotive's engineers :grin: reasoning for after the rail.

Q:I’m trying to plumb my stand-alone EFI regulator properly, where do I put the regulator, before or after the fuel rail(s), and what ports do I use?
A:Unlike a standard or “dead-head” carb regulator, which controls pressure between itself and the carburetor inlet, a bypass regulator creates and controls pressure between itself and the pump. Therefore, the correct EFI regulator location is after the fuel rail(s) whenever possible, promoting the required fuel pressure, flow volume and velocity through the fuel rail and to the injector inlet, at all times. Most Aeromotive EFI regulators have two inlet ports, one on each side, and one bypass port, on the bottom. Either inlet may be used with a single fuel rail engine, both inlets with a dual fuel rail. Any unused inlet ports must be blocked with the appropriate port plug. The ideal flow-path is: out of the fuel pump, into one end of the rail; out the other end of the rail, into the regulator side port(s); out the regulator bottom port, back to the tank at the top. Dual rail applications should employ a Y-block to split the supply line before entering the rails, then individual lines are run from the opposite end of each rail to each inlet port on the regulator.

There's nothing wrong with asking questions. It sucks to pay for shipping on multiple small orders. Trust me, I've been there and done that! :laugh:
 
#53 · (Edited)
You can pop the individual connectors out of the plastic connectors and swap them over. No need to cut and splice. The first few pictures here show how: http://www.srtforums.com/forums/f187/bottleneck-fix-w-pictures-621991/

Hmm, for some reason I never even thought of using the stock feed line as a return line. I'm lazy and don't feel like checking being that this is purely for curiosity's sake, but, what size is the stock feed? And is it even feasible to use as a return line?
It has been done. I'm pretty sure it is 5/16, but don't quote me on that.
 
#57 ·
I'd just spend an extra $100 , do a -6 return off the regulator and be done with it... Future proof it
 
#60 ·
#62 ·
It was more like 9k miles. The car was hesitating bad so I had a hunch that it was the fuel filter. I replaced it and the problem completely went away.

I'd prefer to have a fancy -8 feed line and fuel lab filter, along with all of the an fittings. However, given that we all drive Neons, we are all on a budget. I'd rather spend the $40 and get the car back up and running than spend $300 to do the same thing.
 
#63 · (Edited)
Just 9000miles??!?!

That pos is just going to clog again and it may take the engine with it next time.

Classic example of why NOT to take advice from a unqualified moron.

Trust me, I know more than anyone how cheap( & misinformed) most Neon owners are but think of it like this: You're already in $80+ for the cheap junk and could have easily blown your engine.

Alternatively: you could have spent $90-$125 on a GOOD filter thats the proper size and be 10X better off.
 
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