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Still burning oil, time for valve seals?

6K views 38 replies 9 participants last post by  HybridKid 
#1 ·
This has been an issue for a while now. We've been through everything (that we can think of at least). The issue is that there are big puffs of smoke out of the tail pipe when coming to a stop (right after the engine switches to idle mode). There is no smoke on acceleration or under heavy boost. It does not continue to smoke though, it's a one-time puff until the next time we come to a stop.

-Replaced PCV several times
-replaced PCV lines
-with and without catch can
-with and without check valve in the PCV line
-PCV line has good suction at idle
-Brand new tube seals and valve cover seal
-No oil in CAI
-No oil in intercooler on either side
-No oil in down pipe
-Turbo is new(ish) BWS
-Turbo oil return line replaced and checked twice by myself and the dealer
-Compression test was consistent with 149 psi on all 4

Will do leak down this weekend, but I'm hoping someone can provide something else to check to help troubleshoot the issue. The only thing left that I can think of is valve seals/guides.

If I have the car running and remove the oil cap, there is significant air coming out of the filler hole. The catch can fills up pretty quick. I drain it once a month.

I'm willing to buy you a case of beer for ideas that lead to finding the problem.
 
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#3 ·
Thanks. Already did water pump and timing belt at 95k. Car has 105k right now.
 
#5 ·
I've been getting quotes from shops and looking at new heads. Seems like it's going to cost between $1,100 and $3,000.

Is it "simple" enough to do myself? I'd prefer to not remove the head, cams or belts. Is that possible? I'll review the service manual for specific how-to details.

You want to fly out and help me? Case of beer in it for you :)
 
#6 ·
Ugh. Sorry, I love SoCal and all, but I hate that job. Cams must come off at a minimum as there is no way to get to the springs with the cams in the way.

As for DIY.... well if you can do a timing belt this shouldn't be that much more difficult. As for simple... well it is not that simple, but not that hard either. For the shade tree mechanic it will be an all day job. It isn't that expensive parts wise, it is the labor that kills you. You do need certain tools that can be rented or purchased for a nominal cost. If you don't have them then you will delay you job until you get the correct ones.

A spare head is easiest IMO since you can do all the prep work while you still drive your car around. When it comes time then just do the head swap which is about a 1/2 day job for me.

If you are hesitant then I would suggest not doing it yourself. Hard to judge your skills over the net, and I think that is better left up to you to decide.
 
#7 ·
Thanks. Certainly not at your level, but I am mechanically inclined... just lazy. Then again, I'm also cheap. I guess I need to decide what's more important, being lazy or cheap.

If I have to remove cams (duh, it's DOHC) then I might as well get a new head and install it, saving the hassle of dealing with the valve stuff and also getting some kind of potential performance benefit from the work.

Before I spend time or money on the "valve problem" is there anything else I can check or try that might be causing the issue?
 
#8 ·
Leakdown (which I see you have scheduled) will determine if the cylinders are good or not.

The biggest thing is you need to determine how the oil is getting into the cylinders to burn.

It is either:

Valve seals
Rings
PCV
Turbo seals
--or--
being ingested somehow through the intake.

I have come across many 2.0 and 2.4 heads with leaky seals at rather decent mileage (100k+). Some would drink about 1-2 quarts an oil change and some were bad enough to lose compression in the cylinder.

This is a bad one:





 
#9 ·
Jesus!

Ok, i'll post leak down results once I get them.
 
#10 ·
Interesting thread. My car was going through 1/4 a quart every 200 miles... Just changed the PCV valve. Will know in a few days. I need to change the oil anyway.
 
#11 ·
Went through the manual and everyhting looks easy enough. I ordered a Snap-on GA317 tool and I'll get some oem seals either from modern perfromance or the local dealer, whoever is cheaper.

My only question is about timing. I didn't see anything in the manual about adjusting the timing after reinstalling the cams. I've only ever built a Chevy small block V8 which required the cam/crank to be timed right. If the cams are out and I'm turning the crank to put it at TDC, won't the cams and crank get out of sync?

Any advice or wisdom you can share on this? Is it even an issue?

Also, what's the best way to get the piston to TDC? I'm hoping you don't say a socket on the crank cause it's tight in there.
 
#13 ·
Got down to it finally. The first lobe on the exhaust cam looked kind of funny at first, but after wiping it all down, it seemed to be...ok? Got down into the valves. Started with cyl #2 and everything looked fine. Moved over to cyl #1 which was the once concerning me. Looking in the cylinder through the spark plug hole you can see it looks much worse than the other cylinders.

Anyway, I get all the springs off and i notice that the first exhaust valve has much more play sideways than the other valves. The guide also looks much dirtier than the others too. I'm not sure if this is an issue or not, but it seems like it would be the culprit.

Thoughts? I'm looking at a new head from MP (with cams) but $2100 is steep.

Not the best picture, but this is what it looks like
 
#14 ·
It just depends on how much you want to spend, I guess. I'm interested in everyone's opinion on this as well. I'm not saying you can CUT corners, but you can probably find a used head in better condition and take it to a local machine shop and do some mild porting and come out far less than $2000.... Downside is do you really want cams? Stock turbo is useless not to mention I see you live in Socal. If a bike cop hears you loping he'll send you to the reff. I've seen some BC stage 2s lope and the same cam not lope at all. How many miles do you have on your car? I have 144k... just curious if mine is going to go too lol. I've been losing oil but I think it was the pcv. I've done a couple of gas tanks and the oil level hasn't dropped... compression was at 155,152,158,160 8 or 9 months ago.
 
#27 ·
Built head may be overkill, core costs up front, cams etc.

I was 130k, 50k miles nitrous stock turbo. I saw 150-ish across. Ate some oil between changes, all maintenance listed was checked and up to stuff.

I ended up finding a $250 complete cyl head, spent $420 at machine shop for deck check (didnt need) guides and seals as he saw fit and clean up. Gaskets and beer for buddies to help call it $5-600 by the end and that fixed my issues.

Work it right and trade your old head for $ or parts, I ended up trading for a used hi mileage stock valve DCR ported head and cash for someone going back to stock, and had the same machine shop do the same thing on my 1G now with the fresh old bottom end out of that same car.
 
#15 ·
Stock head from dealer is $850, can I go with stock head a slightly better cams? I think the cams are damaged, but I'm going to take them to a shop to find out. I'm running a BWS which is slightly better than stock turbo and I'm working with Duster to tune it as soon as this issue is resolved.

Not sure which way to go. I'm not trying to build a 10s 1/4 mile car, but we are limited by the 91 octane. Car has 110k miles.
 
#16 ·
Stock head and a better cam just moves the power around frombwhat ive read. Like i said id find an okay head on craigslist for 100 bucks to minimize downtime and take it to a machine shop that knows what they are doing... Or since your car is already apart just take yours down there. If theres head work then do a cam.
 
#19 ·
Ive seen a choo choo train srt4 when the turbo seals go bad.
 
#20 ·
So took the head off. This was a PITFA!!!!! I read a few posts with tips and tricks. One of them said leave the exhaust manifold on and take it off after the head was off. Ok, I figured I'd do that anyway since that motherf-ing heat shield won't come off and it's so hard to get to the bottom bolts. Anyway, I took the turbo out and guess what? It's smoked.




There is a lot of shaft play. (See video here)


Funny thing is, there is oil around the manfold opening, but not inside the manifold or down pipe which is why I figured the turbo was ok. I don't know is this was the cause or the only cause of the oil burn, but here are some pics of the rest of the items





Thoughts? Whats the best way to clean the pistons?

So tomorrow the head goes to the shop for 3 angle valve job with over-sized valves. I have a gasket kit coming tomorrow as well. Looks like I'll need to get the turbo rebuilt. I'm really disappointed in this. It's less than a year old and was not abused at all. Never pushing more than 15 psi.
 
#21 · (Edited)
Hmm...

Well that shaft play is definitely not good. I'd figure you would see that from moving the compressor wheel. Did you not do that beforehand?

Judging by the valves in the pic the seals look ok for that cylinder. A word of caution I would replace them anyways since you are already this deep. They come with the head gasket kit: FelPro HS26202PT. Replace every seal that you can within the kit. There may be leftovers so don't be worried. The kit is $68 from RockAuto and is the best deal that I could find from a trusted vendor. Be sure to read and follow the FSM for installation instructions and torque specs for the valvetrain. You will strip the cam cap thread in no time if you do blindly it by hand. My best advice is to do it in a 3 step process so that the cam seats before applying final torque. I think I start at 50 in/lbs then 80 in/lbs and finally 115 in/lbs (in sequence). This will avert the possibility of stripping the threads. If you do strip the threads AutoZone has the perfect thread repair kit. I have it in the shop is you need the kit number and the proper drill bit. If you do the three step method you should be fine.

Check the head AND block for flatness. Mill if out of spec. Reinstall if in spec. Read the FSM for specs.

At a glance the piston tops seem ok. The abnormal "batman" shape isn't present so I'd assume that your tune is ok and you are not knocking to hell and back.

I cleaned mine (not recent SRT build) with seafoam in the can and a brass wire brush on a drill. Be careful to not let the brush housing hit the bores as it will score them.

Not sure why you pulled the head, but either way it now gives you accountability to everything that associates with it, and you can set a new baseline as to what the condition is from here on out.

I am not sure if I have mentioned timing belt, pulleys/idlers, and water pump. If they are rather new then keep them and re-install them. If they are unknown check the rollers for "tightness" along with the water pump. You want them to be somewhat tight as a free spinning idler and water pump indicates wear. If you have ever felt a brand new water pump or idler you would know the difference really easily. How much wear is unknown if they are really loose and free spinning.

There is a bucket of cleaner that you can pick up a Wal-Mart that is superb at cleaning parts. Is Berryman Parts/Carburetor cleaner and comes in a paint bucket. It has a parts tray included and cleans very well. Excellent $20 spent for a DIY-er.

Best of luck and good troubleshooting so far!
 
#22 ·
Hmm...

Well that shaft play is definitely not good. I'd figure you would see that from moving the compressor wheel. Did you not do that beforehand?
Yep, not play at all! It's not as bad when I try on the compressor side, so maybe the oversized wheel has something to do with it?

Judging by the valves in the pic the seals look ok for that cylinder. A word of caution I would replace them anyways since you are already this deep. They come with the head gasket kit: FelPro HS26202PT. Replace every seal that you can within the kit. There may be leftovers so don't be worried. The kit is $68 from RockAuto and is the best deal that I could find from a trusted vendor. Be sure to read and follow the FSM for installation instructions and torque specs for the valvetrain. You will strip the cam cap thread in no time if you do blindly it by hand. My best advice is to do it in a 3 step process so that the cam seats before applying final torque. I think I start at 50 in/lbs then 80 in/lbs and finally 115 in/lbs (in sequence). This will avert the possibility of stripping the threads. If you do strip the threads AutoZone has the perfect thread repair kit. I have it in the shop is you need the kit number and the proper drill bit. If you do the three step method you should be fine.

Check the head AND block for flatness. Mill if out of spec. Reinstall if in spec. Read the FSM for specs.

At a glance the piston tops seem ok. The abnormal "batman" shape isn't present so I'd assume that your tune is ok and you are not knocking to hell and back.

I cleaned mine (not recent SRT build) with seafoam in the can and a brass wire brush on a drill. Be careful to not let the brush housing hit the bores as it will score them.
I thought everything looked ok for having 110k miles. Nothing like what's posted above. I have a gasket kit coming and I already have brand new valve seals.

Machine shop will check the head and I'll look up how to check the block deck.

I'll have to look up the batman shape.

Not sure why you pulled the head, but either way it now gives you accountability to everything that associates with it, and you can set a new baseline as to what the condition is from here on out.
Removed the head because while we were replacing the valve seals, I saw a lot of movement in some of the guides compared to the others and it looked far more dirty that the others as well. We started with Cyl 2 and it all looked fine. Cyl 1 is what concerned us, so we decided to just replace the guides and since we're doing that, might as well replace the valves too. Getting cams examined and if they are bad, will replace.

I am not sure if I have mentioned timing belt, pulleys/idlers, and water pump. If they are rather new then keep them and re-install them. If they are unknown check the rollers for "tightness" along with the water pump. You want them to be somewhat tight as a free spinning idler and water pump indicates wear. If you have ever felt a brand new water pump or idler you would know the difference really easily. How much wear is unknown if they are really loose and free spinning.
All of that was replaced at 100k miles.

There is a bucket of cleaner that you can pick up a Wal-Mart that is superb at cleaning parts. Is Berryman Parts/Carburetor cleaner and comes in a paint bucket. It has a parts tray included and cleans very well. Excellent $20 spent for a DIY-er.

Best of luck and good troubleshooting so far!
Thanks. Was planning to do some simple green and mild brushes for most of the parts. That thing is filthy. I'll check out the big-bucket-o-cleaner from wal-mart.


Any thoughts on the turbo? Just bad assembly/parts or maybe something we might have done?
 
#23 ·
Big wheel stockers never last long. I will say that my brother has one from ptp and it still runs fine. Over 50k miles!! I wonder how my stage 3vis holding up. It has 104k miles on it at least.
 
#25 ·
since its all apart and you have 110k, i would hone (and i mean hone) and replace the rings and rod bearings (very easy, remove pan, cut balance shaft chain, remove assembly & plug oil fill).. -- don't hit the oil squirters
seafoam (or walmart generic) will clean up the pistons..
if you have an extra $400 get weisco's
replace front seal since you have everything apart since there prone to leaking
 
#28 ·
Ended up getting new valves from MP. Had the shop install new guides, my new seals and the vales along with a 3 angle valve job. Total was $460 + $250 for valves and seals so over all I'm ok with the cost. We got it back and it looks shiny and new. The cams were inspected and got the OK to reuse.

Picking up turbo tonight. Looks like the the oil feed line got clogged and smoked the turbo, so that sucks. Replacing the line. I'm in this thing for about $1200 which isn't too bad IMO assuming nothing else goes wrong.

Oh wait, I'm now at $1400 if you include the $200 I paid for stitches last night. Wrench slipped off the oil feed line and I sliced my fingers open on the old head gasket. Why is everything in that engine bay so f-ing sharp?! Had to get stitches on index finger; it was pretty sick :)



So I was going to put it back together on sat, but I have to wait until next week now.
 
#29 · (Edited)
jeeeezzzzzzz...looks like you pulled your whole body backwards with your body on that slice
.. One time my dog was excited to see my buddy from PA and he lost his balance and grabbed onto the fender. He got cut pretty bad. Almost as bad as your hand. :(
 
#30 ·
Looks like you have most everything in order. If you haven't cleaned the pistons yet, they don't look too bad and if you run a bottle of the Chevron Techron fuel system cleaner in with the gas for the next few refills it will probably clean up a lot of that. If you decide to manually clean the top of the pistons while everything is apart I'd only use a stiff nylon brush and a parts cleaner solvent like the Berryman's recommended earlier. Just try to keep debris from getting down in the sides of the pistons and ring area as much as possible and make sure to do an oil change after everything is reinstalled and before you crank it over.

Speaking of the turbo, if the stock oil feed line was bad make sure to take a close look at the oil drain-back tube and hose and make sure the hose isn't getting soft and collapsing which could cause oil to pool up and leak past the shaft seals in the turbo center section. They can be a pain to change, so also make sure the coolant lines aren't getting soft and when you're getting read to reinstall the oil feed and coolant lines make sure to use new copper crush washers. It's also a good idea to crank the engine over without starting to build oil pressure the first time after installing a freshly rebuilt turbo and if your throttle position sensor (TPS) harness is good you can do so by holding the accelerator pedal to the floor while cranking or pull the auto-shutdown (ASD) relay.

If your head was within spec and wasn't warped the deck should probably be fine but it would be good to check it with a straight edge. To clean it up and help with head gasket sealing Chrysler recommends using a yellow 3M Roloc bristle disc for the iron surfaces (and the white disc for aluminum). Most bigger NAPA and CarQuest stores carry the drill attachment and bristle discs and it does a pretty good job removing corrosion and debris from the deck surface to help ensure a good seal with a coated multi-layer steel (MLS) head gasket like what's used stock.
 
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#31 · (Edited)
How's it going? Are you still wrenching on it? I sent you a pm Titan2782. Were you seeing the puffs from a driver's point of view or was someone following you? I think I might be joining you in that cylinder head boat of yours or possibly worse. I had it filled to the full hashmark on level ground and checked it the other day and it was noticeably lower towards the lower hash mark. 650 miles since oil change with a brand new mopar PCV. Changed to M1 HM 10-40. I'll do a compression test this weekend and check for shaft play. :/ It was fine 9 months ago. Haven't put on more than 12k miles since then.
Edit: I think oil can get past the oil rings and still make good compression though, right?
 
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