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Old 12-25-2012, 04:22 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default p0032 & p0038

Figure i'd post here since this section gets a lot more traffic than the mechanical problems section.

Oxygen (A/F) Sensor Heater Control Circuit High (Bank 1 Sensor 1) & Bank 1 Sensor 2.


Anyone got any ideas on how to remove them?

Mind you, I have:

- Replaced the upper and lower with Brand new 02's.
- Brand new engine harness
- Replaced my pcm with a newer pcm that was in perfect condition and unused in the past 4yrs.
- I cut the wires/connector off the harness at the lower 02, and ran new wires up all the way to the C101 Harness Connector.

Literally any and all things that could possibly make the pcm throw this code, have been replaced. Any other ideas?

It's not affecting my car's performance, but I'll be damned if its not annoying.
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Old 12-25-2012, 04:30 PM   #2 (permalink)
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http://www.carbide-red.com/service_m...ice_manual.pdf

Page 43.

I just scanned thru it sounds like you covered most. But wouldn't hurt to re read it.




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Old 12-25-2012, 05:17 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Yea I went through the service manual, and performed as many tests as I could.

2 Turn the ignition off.
NOTE: Allow the O2 Sensor to cool down before continuing the test. The O2
Sensor voltage should stabilize at 5.0 volts. Raising the hood may help in
reducing under hood temps quicker.
Ignition on, engine not running.
With the DRBIIIt, actuate the O2 Heater Test.
With the DRBIIIt, monitor O2 Sensor voltage for at least 2 minutes.
Does the O2 Sensor voltage stay above 4.5 volts?
All
Yes ! Go To 3
No ! Refer to the INTERMITTENT CONDITION symptom in the
Driveability category.
Perform POWERTRAIN VERIFICATION TEST VER - 5 - NGC.

I don't have a DRB3...so I went to dataviewer, selected a bunch of 02 and 02 heater control PID's that I thought would be the correct PID it calls for. Everything look kosher? This is with car off, ignition on, about 2min 30sec in.


02 11 RAW and 02 12 RAW (11 & 12 for bank 1 sensor 1&2) show 4.85-4.9V, so I assume it passes this test.




3 Turn the ignition off.
NOTE: Allow the O2 sensor to cool down to room temperature.
Disconnect the O2 Sensor harness connector.
Measure the resistance across the O2 Sensor Heater element component side.
NOTE: Heater Resistance Specification: 1/1 and 2/1 = 3.0 to 4.0 ohms or 1/2
and 2/2 = 4.0 to 5.0 ohms.
Is the O2 Sensor Heater element within specification?
All
Yes ! Go To 4
No ! Replace the O2 Sensor.
Perform POWERTRAIN VERIFICATION TEST VER - 5 - NGC


YES. 1/1 measured at 3.9 ohm. 1/2 measured at 4.1 ohm.




4 Turn the ignition off.
Disconnect the O2 Sensor harness connector.
Ignition on, engine not running.
With the DRBIIIt, actuate the O2 Heater Test.
Using a 12-volt test light connected to ground, probe the O2 Heater Control circuit in
the O2 Sensor harness connector.
Does the test illuminate brightly and flash on and off?
All
Yes ! Go To 5
No ! Go To 6


No DRBIII...
12v test lights light up so long as Voltage is present. I don't have a 12v test light, but looking at the above 02 LOG, it shows there is equal voltage to upper and lower 02, so this test passes, IMO.





5 Turn the ignition off.
Disconnect the O2 Sensor harness connector.
Measure the resistance between engine ground and the O2 Heater ground circuit in
the O2 Sensor harness connector.
Is the resistance below 5.0 ohms?
All
Yes ! Replace the O2 Sensor.
Perform POWERTRAIN VERIFICATION TEST VER - 5 - NGC.
No ! Repair the open in the O2 Heater ground circuit.
Perform POWERTRAIN VERIFICATION TEST VER - 5 - NGC.

Upstream, yes, under 5.0 ohm. Downstream, would sometimes be under 5 ohm, then go crazy

I had my buddy that is fluent with dealing with electrical with me while testing everything. the only awkward thing was the ground wire after the c101 firewall connector would give wacky resistance. Sometimes it would be below the called for 5ohm, then all the sudden it would jump up to 70+ohm.

I cut the ground wire about 2" from the 02 sensor clip, wired the wire strand to a chassis ground bolt, and checked resistance again, and same thing. Thought maybe the wire was messed up at the pin, so i cut the wiring off at the c101 connector side, and ran new wires down to the lower 02 and soldered a new 02 connector, on the harness side. I pulled out all the old wiring and connector from the wire loom, so as it would not be of any issue.


Since the 02 sensor shares a common ground wire with about 5 other sensors, I got the ground for the new lower 02 wiring BEFORE the common ground splice connections where the 5-6 wires all meet so as to avoid any possible complications.

shrink wrapped it all, put the battery in, and within 10sec of starting up, it fired the codes off.


EDIT: I tested the both ground's resistance again to the battery negative
lower was 3.6ohm with the upper 02 connected, 3.8ohm with it disconnected
upper 02 read at 4.8ohm, so it passed this test as well.


6 Turn the ignition off.
Disconnect the O2 Sensor harness connector.
Disconnect the PCM harness connector.
Ignition on, engine not running.
Measure the voltage on the O2 Heater Control circuit at the O2 Sensor harness
connector.
Does the voltmeter indicate any voltage present?
All
Yes ! Repair the short to voltage in the O2 Heater Control circuit.
Perform POWERTRAIN VERIFICATION TEST VER - 5 - NGC.
No ! Go To 7

6 & 7 are the only tests I did not try. Should it read 0(V) period in this test?




7 Turn the ignition off.
Disconnect the O2 Sensor harness connector.
Disconnect the PCM harness connector.
CAUTION: DO NOT PROBE THE PCM HARNESS CONNECTORS. PROBING
THE PCM HARNESS CONNECTORS WILL DAMAGE THE PCM TERMINALS RESULTING IN POOR TERMINAL TO PIN CONNECTION. INSTALL
MILLER SPECIAL TOOL #8815 TO PERFORM DIAGNOSIS.
Measure the resistance of the O2 Heater Control circuit from the O2 Sensor harness
connector to the appropriate terminal of special tool #8815
Is the resistance below 5.0 ohms?
All
Yes ! NOTE: Before continuing, check the PCM harness connector
terminals for corrosion, damage, or terminal push out. Repair as
necessary. Replace and program the Powertrain Control Module
in accordance with the Service Information.
Perform POWERTRAIN VERIFICATION TEST VER - 5 - NGC.
No ! Repair the open in the O2 Heater Control circuit.
Perform POWERTRAIN VERIFICATION TEST VER - 5 - NGC


I don't have special tool #8815, and not going to spend $250 for one in order to test resistance.. and truthfully the tool isn't needed to do so.
So basically test the '02 heater Wire' to chassis ground, and check resistance? Or check it from the 02 heater wire to the 02 ground wire (to complete the heater circuit?)
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Old 12-25-2012, 05:30 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Hm....maybe trace where to circuit grounds and clean/re-seat the connection?
Just a suggestion...
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Old 12-25-2012, 05:42 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote: Originally Posted by JJB05SRT4 View Post
Hm....maybe trace where to circuit grounds and clean/re-seat the connection?
Just a suggestion...


All the wires related to the upper/lower 02 sensors are brand new so 'cleaning the connections' shouldn't be an issue. New engine harness. From c101 firewall connector down to the lower 02 is all new wiring too, and the circuit ground is pulled from the ground wire BEFORE it T's into about 6 other wires.



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Old 12-25-2012, 07:17 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Decided to retest step 5, and do step 6 & 7

5 Turn the ignition off.
Disconnect the O2 Sensor harness connector.
Measure the resistance between engine ground and the O2 Heater ground circuit in
the O2 Sensor harness connector.
Is the resistance below 5.0 ohms?
All
Yes ! Replace the O2 Sensor.
Perform POWERTRAIN VERIFICATION TEST VER - 5 - NGC.
No ! Repair the open in the O2 Heater ground circuit.
Perform POWERTRAIN VERIFICATION TEST VER - 5 - NGC.

I tested the lower and upper 02's ground wire to battery negative resistance. STEP 5

downstream: 3.6ohm
upstream: 4.8ohm

so both ground circuit wires check out OK.


Then I checked them again, and both were .2 - .3 ohm. Why the sudden drop? Readings taken from the same pin and ground location (battery). It's still well below spec, just interesting.





6 Turn the ignition off.
Disconnect the O2 Sensor harness connector.
Disconnect the PCM harness connector.
Ignition on, engine not running.
Measure the voltage on the O2 Heater Control circuit at the O2 Sensor harness
connector.
Does the voltmeter indicate any voltage present?
All
Yes ! Repair the short to voltage in the O2 Heater Control circuit.
Perform POWERTRAIN VERIFICATION TEST VER - 5 - NGC.
No ! Go To 7

STEP 6
ign on, car off. orange PCM plug connected, sensor disconnected:

lower: 1.304(V)
upper: 1.441(V)

orange PCM plug disconnected, sensor disconnected:
lower: 0.0(V)
upper: 0.0(V)

This, as well, passed the test.





7 Turn the ignition off.
Disconnect the O2 Sensor harness connector.
Disconnect the PCM harness connector.
CAUTION: DO NOT PROBE THE PCM HARNESS CONNECTORS. PROBING
THE PCM HARNESS CONNECTORS WILL DAMAGE THE PCM TERMINALS
RESULTING IN POOR TERMINAL TO PIN CONNECTION. INSTALL
MILLER SPECIAL TOOL #8815 TO PERFORM DIAGNOSIS.
Measure the resistance of the O2 Heater Control circuit from the O2 Sensor harness
connector to the appropriate terminal of special tool #8815
Is the resistance below 5.0 ohms?
All
Yes ! NOTE: Before continuing, check the PCM harness connector
terminals for corrosion, damage, or terminal push out. Repair as
necessary. Replace and program the Powertrain Control Module
in accordance with the Service Information.
Perform POWERTRAIN VERIFICATION TEST VER - 5 - NGC.
No ! Repair the open in the O2 Heater Control circuit.
Perform POWERTRAIN VERIFICATION TEST VER - 5 - NGC


I didn't use the tool (all it does is make the job easier for the guy).
Orange pcm plug disconnected, sensor disconnected:
upper: OL
lower: OL
I didn't get any resistance reading, so I assume this is acceptable



I've passed all the tests I could do through the service manual, so WTH is going on?
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Old 12-25-2012, 07:26 PM   #7 (permalink)
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What's the chance u got a busted sensor? Even though brand new.


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Old 12-25-2012, 07:35 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I checked the ohm resistance of the new sensors, and they met the service manual requirements (3.9 and 4.1 ohm respectively, new as well as the old).

If there were a problem with the heater circuits on the sensors, the ohm readings would be above the spec readings.
This is an interesting case, since it literally passes every test, yet still throws the codes.

All brand new wires. all brand new sensors. Pretty annoying that I can't come up with something that I could find as a likely culprit, lol.
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Old 12-26-2012, 11:42 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Did you clear the codes? I know it sounds stupid but people forget. The cel won't go off or a pretty long time unless you turn it off manually
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Old 12-26-2012, 03:38 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Check G102
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Old 12-26-2012, 08:00 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote: Originally Posted by duster360 View Post
Check G102

Ground Z1 18 BK
From PCM to:
Alternator
AC Compressor
02 upstream

>>> to C101 connector

From C101 Connector to:
Brake lamp switch
Clutch Upstop switch
Antilock brake controller
Speed Control Servo
02 downstream

From that, it goes to G102 ground connection.

There's more grounds that pair to G102, too much to list.


I undid the bolt that holds G102, and took a dremel grind stone to the connection point since it was all paint, and zero bare metal. I fixed that.

I measured resistance from that ground connection to another ground point (the ground next to the fuse box), and came up with 0.2 ohm. Looking good, from the DMM's point of view.


Are you suggesting I pull back the tape/loom and follow the 4 ground leads that come off G102? Do I need to check ground resistance at each sensor connection?
I'm not an electrician by any means, but I'm trying the best I can here, lol.


$50 to you or anyone through paypal that pinpoints me to my problem. It's not a lot, but it's not bad for giving some suggestions through a message without doing the dirty work, lol.
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Old 12-26-2012, 08:21 PM   #12 (permalink)
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For checking grounds it's better to do a voltage drop rather than a ohm test. Just put your meter on DC volts and go from the ground to the battery negative to get your reading.

I've seen the G102 break just before the eye loop connector and cause all kinds of problems. It showed no voltage drop or resistance because if where it broke there was still a strand of wire connected.

The heater is a pretty simple circuit literally just a power and ground and an element inside the sensor. What did the voltage read at the sensor connector with the engine running sensor unplugged?
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Old 12-26-2012, 08:38 PM   #13 (permalink)
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More resistance = more voltage drop.

0.2 thats what a meter reads when red lead touches blk lead. "Perfect" lol


Now that I finished reading ur post. It makes sense. HA!

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Old 12-26-2012, 08:41 PM   #14 (permalink)
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With the G102 ground reading 0.2 ohm, I started the car. Threw up 0032/0038 within 10seconds again.

I swapped the upper 02 with 3 upper 02 sensor (2 oem, 1 NTK OE replacement), and each time after a battery reset, p0032 came up every time (along with 0038, but I was just testing out the hypothesis from some locals, that it was the sensors, though the resistance tests show they are in perfect order).
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Old 12-26-2012, 08:51 PM   #15 (permalink)
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what I would do here would be do test 4 over again, without the DRB you can run the car and it should cycle the heaters, probe with a volt meter across the terminals at the sensor, that way you can test the ground and power at the same time. Post up what you get. If you have test pins to backprobe through the weather pack that would be best. If not just unplug the sensor and check at the connector.

Then do a datalog and log everything you had up there and go for a drive, then post the log here.
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