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Oil consumption

19K views 151 replies 13 participants last post by  grat_master 
#1 ·
Hi

Long time member. I bought a new SRT with forward motion enforcer 2 shortblock and head with a GT35R.

Now I am wondering : I burn more than a quart of oil each 1k miles

Is this normal ?

The oil squirters are still there.

Compression test : 150 on each cylinders
Leak down : 6% on each cylinders at TDC

Checked cold side pipe no oil in it. Checked cold turbine no oil there either.

Also I get like 7kr while boosting 23psi eventho I run 50/50 water/meth and 94 octane fuel (I live in Canada). Total ignition advance is 17-18 on aeroforce scan gauge.

I am asking here if there is anything else I can do before tearing the engine apart ? This build is less than 35K miles.

Thank you
Alex
 
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#3 ·
Was the leak down test done hot? Do you have access to a bore scope? Could take a look at the pistons and see if you have excessive amounts of burnt/built up oil. Have you had your intake manifold off recently to look in the intake ports?
 
#4 ·
pcv -> catch can -> check valve -> intake

catch can gets full fast I think. I have to empty it between oil changes.

smoke is hard to tell right now, it's -20 C where I live. But as far as I can tell, there is nothing black or blue comming out enough for me to see it when I drive. Also, when I start the car when cold there is nothing coming out of exhaust.
 
#6 · (Edited)
post pictures of the plugs, if the're clean i'd pull the turbo and check the turbo hot side before ripping into the motor.

did you check for blow by, removing oil filler cap with the engine running/hot.. if puffing time to rebuild motor

lastly, try venting pvc to the atmosphere and plug the intake side.
 
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#11 · (Edited)
With a friend following me, he never saw smoke while driving smooth and he only saw black smoke when full boost but I think this is because of my tune, I'm running too rich. AFR is spot on while in closed loop.

No blow by with oil filler cap removed. Also right side valve cover vent is free and there is nothing coming out.

I verified again : I ran 1700 km, so around 1k miles, and it burned close to 1.5 quart of oil. In that 1k miles, I didn't boost much.

Also catch can is near full. This is a medium sized one.

Finally, I think I'm burning coolant too. There was some missing. I'm not sure because last time (2 weeks ago) that I worked on this engine, coolant hose to turbo exploded. I replaced it and refilled coolant but maybe didn't put enough.

So, what all you gurus think ?

I'll try to borrow a turbo and see if there is still oil consumption.
 
#12 ·
Sounds like head venting is where the oil is getting out. The catch can when you say 'near full', is it oil or water or both? More oil than water? Is the catch can venting to air or hooked up before the turbo or after?
I would try just venting to air and see if vacuum is pulling too much out of the head.
 
#13 ·
Definitely not normal. There should not be that much oil in the catch can. Engine compression is good. make sure your Check Valve is not clogged/ is working or even installed in the right direction. You have to much crank case pressure (from something.... ie. the problem) and it is over pressurizing your system, and it is pushing it out where ever it can. I would also suspect your turbo leaking oil into your exhaust and "if" you have a catalytic converter the oil build up would not be very noticeable out the tail pipe.
 
#14 ·
I don't have a cat but I have thermal exhaust with rear muffler, maybe that's why I can't see anything coming out the back.

I will verify check valve tomorrow.

Like I said, the nipple on the right side on valve cover vents free and my engine bay is not dirty. If there was too much crank case pressure, shouldn't everything be dirty on the right hand side ?

How can I verify turbo leak ?

Also, if I was really burning that much oil, spark plug would not be clean like that right ?

catch can setup : pcv -> catch can -> check valve -> intake manifold, therefore it is connected after turbo. Last time I emptied the catch can, it was 100% oil. Dark oil. I will empty it again in a bucket and check how it is.

Someone told me it is oil rings, that I have to tear engine apart and replace all rings. That's a rather expensive job. I want to rule out everything else before doing this.

thank you for helping me getting this sorted out. I bought the car like that, thinking it was a good deal but now I understand why the car was so cheap.
 
#15 ·
The check valve it's self is directional. Some actually have an ( -> ) arrow indicating the direction it should be pointing. It needs to be pointed to the throttle body. If it is pointed at the valve cover then it is always being pushed closed.

It could be piston rings too. However if the rings are that bad or the cylinder walls scored that much or cylinder walls out of round that much, a compression check will show you that information. Do a compression check.

I do not think your "burning" oil as much as "pushing" oil out.

You can check the turbo oil seal by removing the down pipe off the turbo and see if there is any oil there. Normal soot is all that should be there.

Make sure the oil drain line is 1: not pinched or kinked 2: does not have any up hill turns, it needs to be all down hill. If the turbo drain is not properlly routed it will cause excess pressure and Push oil out the engine. 3: If the drain line is to small ..... inside diameter is what matters..... the exact same excess pressure can build up and Push oil out.
 
#17 ·
Dont forget to check the check valve, direction and if it is working.
 
#28 · (Edited)
update :

I did every tests and they all pass. But I still burn 1qt / less than 1k miles.

Turbo has oil restrictor.

Check valve works good.

no blow by

spark plugs still look good

leak down 6%, compression 150 on all cylinders, both tests done with engine warm

I made a mistake on the catch can. It fills at a constant pace.

I'm running on Rotella T6 5w40. It makes no difference. Now that the temperature is going up, I will change for some 20w50. Maybe thicker oil will reduce oil consumption.

This weekend I will try to check if turbo is leaking in exhaust. I thought I could remove o2 sensor from o2 housing and insert a white rag in the hole. What you guys think ?

Now I'm running out of answers. I hope I don't have to rebuild the engine ...

Also, what I find really strange is eventho I run 91 octane fuel, 50/50 water meth, afr are in the 10s, timing is stock s2, 23 psi boost, I STILL get knock ... Oil is dark really quick. Probably because I run too rich at WOT... At cruise speed, afr is spot on : 14.6 - 15.2

I know I need tuning. I bought the car like that. I got SCT prp to tune. I was waiting for the nice weather to tune it real good.
 
#29 ·
update :

Also, what I find really strange is eventho I run 91 octane fuel, 50/50 water meth, afr are in the 10s, timing is stock s2, 23 psi boost, I STILL get knock ... Oil is dark really quick. Probably because I run too rich at WOT... At cruise speed, afr is spot on : 14.6 - 15.2
Running too rich at WOT is nearly as bad as running lean. Gas washes the oil off the cylinders and makes your rings go bad. The knocking you are hearing could be piston slap because of bad rings.
I say you have a strong possibility of bad rings.
NO, DO NOT pull the O2 sensor and push a cloth in there, it will tell you nothing and could catch fire.
 
#30 · (Edited)
It could be valve stem seals.

Were those replaced during the build? I had a neon that went through oil like crazy with no real sign of where it was going. I only had a small poof of blue smoke when taking off at a light. Rebuilt the head and it went away. There was obvious sign of oil passing down the exhaust stems and burning/gooping up.

Any idea what your oil pressure is? I wonder if you are flooding the head causing excess oil to pass good or almost good seals....

Any signs of leaks?

I'm on the fence w/ rings being bad. Compression and leakdown don't really fit the bill IMO.

Also OP you can get a cheap USB borescope from Amazon for really cheap.

Here is an example: [ame]http://www.amazon.com/DBPOWER-Waterproof-Borescope-Endoscope-Inspection/dp/B00JERRES6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1458272597&sr=8-1&keywords=borescope[/ame]

Search around for youtube videos to demonstrate how they work.
 
#33 ·
It could be valve stem seals.

Were those replaced during the build? I had a neon that went through oil like crazy with no real sign of where it was going. I only had a small poof of blue smoke when taking off at a light. Rebuilt the head and it went away. There was obvious sign of oil passing down the exhaust stems and burning/gooping up.

Any idea what your oil pressure is? I wonder if you are flooding the head causing excess oil to pass good or almost good seals....

Any signs of leaks?

I'm on the fence w/ rings being bad. Compression and leakdown don't really fit the bill IMO.

Also OP you can get a cheap USB borescope from Amazon for really cheap.

Here is an example: http://www.amazon.com/DBPOWER-Water...UTF8&qid=1458272597&sr=8-1&keywords=borescope

Search around for youtube videos to demonstrate how they work.
I started to develop a oil consumption issue towards the end of last year. In cold weather only I got a nice puff of blue smoke on startup. Changed valve seals and the oil consumption dropped considerably eliminating the smoke on startup. Shortly after that I started a smoke screen during boost, which of course turned out to be the 11 year old Chra.

Cold Ccompression 149 150 150 150
Warm 150 across the board.

If you don't have any smoke or oil in the coldside your turbo and check valve don't sound like the issue. Worn valve guides and seals would also increase oil consumption, but some sort of smoke would be present. The idea of pulling things apart may have to be considered because you can have a good compression/ leakdown test, but have bad oil control rings.
 
#31 ·
sure sounds like something is very wrong with the oil control rings...

i'd pull the head and pan .. pull the pistons -- hone (paddle not brush type) the crap out of each cyl (make sure to cover the crank & clean thoroughly), install new rings... say a prayer.. if less than 5k on the motor, i'd reuse the rod bearings.
 
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#34 ·
sure sounds like something is very wrong with the oil control rings...

i'd pull the head and pan .. pull the pistons -- hone (paddle not brush type) the crap out of each cyl (make sure to cover the crank & clean thoroughly), install new rings... say a prayer.. if less than 5k on the motor, i'd reuse the rod bearings.
Cut that out. :jester:
 
#32 · (Edited)
FWIW, my car is using less oil since I removed the check-valve and catch can and replaced the PVC valve with a new one.
I know this runs contrary to conventional wisdom here, but my car is getting old with 113xxx miles.
Virgin, uncracked motor with S3 boosting 20PSI on California grade 91 octane Union 76.
Might be worth a try in your case, maybe?
 
#35 ·
Last month I removed intake manifold and there was nothing special in the ports or around valves...

Also, if I was really burning that much oil, wouldn't my spark plugs be nasty ?

Engine got around 35K miles since build. Even if it was running rich at WOT, you guys really think that it could have messed up the rings ? I mean, how many WOT miles does it need to scrap the rings and/or cylinder walls ? This is not a drag car. This was a weekend car for the last 4 or 5 years. Also, it wasn't that rich during all those 35K miles.

That's why I want to check if turbo is leaking.
 
#40 ·
If you really think it's the turbo pull the cold side and check for oil. Even with a catch can a light film can be expected, but if it's enough to pour out you found your issue. You've actually done most if not all the proper troubleshooting.
 
#39 ·
Ok, I kind of went back through this thread and looked at the pics again, these are my thoughts.

You should disconnect the catch can from the intake and vent to air, plug the port it was connected to at the intake so you don't create a leak. Vent the one on the drivers side to air too but put a filter there. You will know real fast if that is a problem as you will see oil dripping all over the place. Bad rings cause blow by which pressurizes your block and the easiest routes out are the PCV and the other port that connects to the pipe to the turbo.
You are running meth but how often? All the time? If 80% or more I would think your plugs would look less black around the edge surrounding the porcelain, the steam and alcohol really cleans up everything into and out of the combustion chamber. 1 & 4 looks worst to me. This would point to maybe like atroph said about bad valve seals.
Cold starts, puffs in the morning is sometimes caused by bad turbo seal on the exhaust side. You may not necessarily see the smoke while driving or when you step on it unless it is bad enough, then drivers behind you would get pissed.;)
If you take the intake manifold off you can see the valve stems and if they have gunk around them then it is the seals.
The exhaust side is not so easy to check and is in a bad place to see inside even if you take the exhaust manifold off.
 
#41 · (Edited)
when I removed the intake manifold, nothing was wrong. Head was built at same time as engine. It is a Forward Motion Enforcer 2 short block and head.

I already checked at least 3 times if there is blue smoke when cold start. Never saw some. Also, with my friend following me (whom is a high tech mechanic), he said he never saw blue smoke while driving normal, and only black smoke when WOT because too rich.

I will check again spark plugs this weekend and take some more pictures.

How long can I run without pcv connected to intake manifold ?
Here is what I will try : I will wrap the driver side port on valve cover with a white cloth and WOT a few times. I will know right there is there is enough blow by to push oil out of valve cover. Because at idle, there is no blow by whatsoever from oil port, oil stick or driver side port.

If you really think it's the turbo pull the cold side and check for oil. Even with a catch can a light film can be expected, but if it's enough to pour out you found your issue. You've actually done most if not all the proper troubleshooting.
No oil in cold side pipe. No oil in hot side pipe either.


Another question : can I burn that much oil from bad oil rings ? I mean the car is at WOT at most 10 minutes a week...
 
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